WT7 Judge...from Baltimore???
 

So after have participated in many discussions on this forum related to WT7 cars it was always suggested by others that the known cars were all found to be from the Pontiac assembly plant or Oshawa ONT Canada plant. It was also understood that the option was a very early year one that was quickly discontinued so only those early build cars were candidates for the WT7 option. (then why did they show up on 71 Judges?)

During the recent GTOAA meet in Wisconsin I was able to look over a Polar White Judge from MN with RED BLACK YELLOW stripes and decals and the black spoiler. It was a 4 speed Ram Air IV car. The owner was able to produce the build sheet that proved the WT7 heritage thus defying most of the information I'd heard in the past.

The car was built in February of 1970 at the Baltimore assembly plant and was a nice driver-condition car.

AFAIR Black wing on a 70 was a D80 option Sounds like the WT7 included the D80.. Does look better than a white wing (stock).
"D80 Auxiliary Panel & Valance (Spoiler) Rear"

ps yes mine is a documented (PHS) Judge.

Wouldn't have taken a pic of it?

1971 would have no Baltimore built Judges.
I know of an Arlington 1970 WT-7 Judge.

Weren't the stripes supposed to be black?

:confused:

padgett, is your Judge a WT-7 Judge?

:confused:

Mine is an Arlington car but came with a white wing, I just like black better.

WT7
 

the car was purchased from an east coast collector. I believe it was sold on ebay with no motor or trans. that east coast collector confirms it was a real WT7 car.

I was able to watch the owner show another show goer the binder with the build sheet. I didn't take a photo of the build sheet as i thought that was a bit too much but i did get a shot of the PHS sheet that was on the dash.

Both show participants commented that they'd never seen a real WT7 car and, for me too, it was my first.

I started this thread after reading LOTS of past threads related to WT7 cars and how they were only built at Pontiac/Oshawa assembly and they were only early build cars. I was researching this early on as my Polar White car was purchased with a black wing and the wrong stripe combo.

After confirming that my car rolled off of the transport in June of 1970 with a white wing and red blue yellow stripes, i understood the car wasn't a real WT7 car...and no build sheet with my car. However, even back in 1974 the original owner thought that painting the wing black was the thing to do. I have a photo of my car from 74 with big ass slicks, bullet mirrors and a black wing.

The original owner told me that "painting the wing black was a popular thing to do since all of the advertising literature showed black winged cars". The original owners dad worked at the Yoder Pontiac dealership in McAllen, TX where the car was ordered and said they had a poster on the wall with a 70 Judge RAIV with a black wing and that's the way they ordered it but it came in (from Arlington) with a white wing and blue stripes.

WT-7 thread by BVZ


:)

This might help yahttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6c378a80e8.jpg

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

Cool!


Does it say WT 7 next to the decal option?


:confused:

Are you saying a 1970 Polarwhite Judge has a black wing if it has D80 on the build sheet?
Source on that?

My 1970 Polarwhite Judge is built in Baltimore and has the D80 Air Foil option.
Time to paint the wing black and get black stripes?

That's how I read it Kenth... Of course we know after decades of examining original build sheets that all GM vehicles of the late '60's & 70's received a D80 on their build sheet for a factory installed rear spoiler. In the end, his original assertion is just more babble.

Thanks for telling us about your discovery Carl.
Maybe someday they will care to share it with us.

I've been real involved with tracking down any and all info and trying to document WT7 cars for a pretty good while.

Have never seen it said that "all" 1970 WT7's were exclusively produced in Pontiac and Oshawa.
It has been stated many times that "all the documented cars - so far - have been PMD or Oshawa" .
Very different meanings with those terminologies.

Same with build date timeframes -
have never seen it stated that it had to be an early car.
It wasn't available until mid-year prodcution in 1970 and continued without interruption as far as we know, until 71 Judge production stopped.

And it still stands that no one has produced a document (buildsheet) for a WT7 from anywhere other than those 2 plants.

Rare4K may have just shown us a partial buildsheet for a 1970 WT7 from Baltimore.
That would be COOL !

There is another Baltimore car rumored - a RamAirIV 4speed.
It was for sale in Charlotte NC several several years ago.
Owner would not communicate or share the Buildsheet - he said he had it in his description, when it was on charlotte craigslist.

Don King inspected the same car at some point later on and said he saw the Buildsheet and it was legit. But he didn't buy the car.
He also didn't care to share a picture of the Bsheet with us.
Wrong engine , converted to Automatic , semi-restored kinda.
Wanted around 50k

Someone later joined PY and claimed to have bought that car , and that they have the Bsheet. And then they vanished

I will not declare any car in any study i have participated in as legit or count it in a Roll Call or Registry until the Documents Are Posted.
Makes no good sense to me and could seem as corrupted integrity.
If they don't want to share or document a rarity - thats fine.

hear-say , they-say , hip-hip-hooray
Someone else can start their own registry and see how well that flies.
You'll have 300 of them before you know it with hear-say they-say

I think we have only documented four or five 1970 WT7 cars so far on PY.
For a long time - there were NONE / ZERO

Nowhere close to enough specimens to declare anything much at all really.
We can only examine the cars that have proved themselves by documentation.

We are working against a claim of 51 cars all supposedly built at Arlington
We do not have an Arlington Car documented yet .
We do have a handful from Oshawa and PMD

i think the partial Bsheet that Rare4k posted reads as

SPEC BLK DECALS
Special Black Decals

But what car does it go to ? lol

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1627920545

That car was a real ram air IV in The Carolinas, I owned it back in the early 80s that is the build sheet I showed you with the black wing option from Baltimore.

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I see the white 1970 Ram Air IV Judge CarlBraun talked about in his first post made it on the cover of the September issue of the Legend (along with my buddies Tropical Lime 1971 Judge). The owner was from Minnesota and said he was a member of this forum. I talked at length with him about his car being a Baltimore-built WT7 car. I might be the person CarlBraun alluded to in his second post. Like everyone else, I had heard that all true WT7 cars were Arlington built. The owner produced not one, but two build sheets showing "SPEC BLK DECALS." Over the next couple of days I returned to the white Judge numerous times with my camera hoping to get a photo of those build sheets. But every time I found nobody was around. I only wound up with photos of the black rear spoiler and PHS sheet.

Thanks for sharing the additional info on the Baltimore WT7 car .
What other options did it have ?
Where was it sold new ?

Its been a while, but i think we only had 3 1970 cars documented previously,
1 with Black Buckets
1 with Black Bench
1 with Red Buckets ( Ram IV )
all with 4 speed

There is also the 1970 RamAirIV PMD show car that pre-dates WT7 option,
but has been considered to be a test bed for the appearance option. {statement from Jim Wangers}
Black Buckets 4spd

And 3 1971 cars
The 71's are a mix of interior colors and transmissions
White Auto
Blue 4 speed
Saddle 3 speed

Just a suspicion but while the D-80 on most cars mean "a spoiler" the Judge package (code 332) included a body colored spoiler so "D80" there meant a black spoiler.

Mine came with a white spoiler but since I like black accents on polar white, my white wing is in storage along with the "unsafe in the driveway" 14x6s, and original sticky steering wheel. Grilles, hood scoops, tach, and wing are all black. Also have 71 side mirrors and a red formula steering wheel to match the interior.

On a 70 model
D80 only applied to the Spoiler/AirFoil itself - no dual definitions for D80
All 70 Judges will have D80 on the Bsheet
All Oshawa 70 Judges will have D80 on trim tag/cowl tag .
Regardless of body color .
So how could D80 determine the color of a spoiler with umpteen color choices under 1 code ?

WT7 / 604 is what signifies Black Spoiler and Black Stripes
It was a no-cost appearance option on Polar White cars.
Vast majority of White 70 Judges were not WT7 optioned.

Some Bsheets have a code for Stripe/Decal colors also.
That also aids in documenting.

The hood decals are supposed to be Red on a WT7
fwiw

Oops, I misspoke in my previous post saying "Arlington built" when I should have said "Pontiac/Oshawa built." The white Judge at the Nationals was sold new at Powell Motor Co. in Salisbury, Maryland. Its options are:

Ram Air IV Glass S/R
Four-speed Radio P/B
Posi Gauges
G70 X 14 Pwr Stg
Formula wheel Mats
Console Spg Shocks
Disc brakes

I can add a little bit more to the WT 7 discussion. I have a buddy who is the second owner of a white 1970 Judge. I first met him the summer of 1993 at a car show. He had owned his Judge for many years but it had only been recently restored. And he had a huge trophy displayed with his car as it had just won 1st place in the Judge class at the GTOAA Nationals a month before. The both of us soon helped start a local chapter of the GTOAA (today its a POCI chapter).

The original owner of my buddies Judge walked into Vetesnik Motors in Richland Center, Wisconsin in 1970 looking for a car. Not liking the red interior of the white Judge on the showroom floor, he decided to order one. He selected a white Judge with a black interior. He also checked off a Ram Air IV engine, four-speed, 4:33 posi, hood tach and almost nothing else. His car was built in March at the Arlington, Texas plant.

That original owner is still alive today and I had the pleasure of talking with him back in 2007. He told me he wanted the fastest Judge he could get. No power nothing. He was beaten only once, by a 1966 Nova with a 350 engine, 3:56 gears and open headers. He also recalled blowing up the original Ram Air IV engine and the dealership installing a service replacement short block.

Interestingly, he was aware of the WT 7 option when he placed his order. At the time of our conversation I didn't ask him about it, but he has shared the story at other times. He said he seriously considered the WT 7 option but ultimately decided against it. He figured that he could save some money by simply painting the rear spoiler himself.

Now, I wonder if this played a factor when other people ordered a white Judge as the WT 7 option was quite rare. Does anybody know of a car where the original owner painted the rear spoiler black? What did the WT 7 option cost?

When the Judge was delivered to the original owner he did indeed paint the rear spoiler black. The first photo is from 1972 and shows the original owners girlfriend (later wife) leaning on the car. (Yes, I originally posted these photos a number of years ago but this time I have enhanced the color.) The American Racing 200 S wheels mounted on the front of the car are now on my 1968 Chevelle Rat Rod.

By the mid-1970s my buddy had bought the Judge. The next photo shows his girlfriend (later wife) leaning on the car. As you can see he kept the rear spoiler black.

By the late 1980s the Judge had been repainted a couple of times but the spoiler remained black. The car had become quite rusty and was used at least one year for deer hunting. Everyone just loves the photo.

In the early 1990s when the Judge was restored the car was brought back to as-built condition, so the spoiler was painted its factory white.

At that 1993 GTOAA Nationals my buddy and Quint Stires lined up their white Judges in front of the host hotel. My buddy told me that the Stires car was a genuine documented WT 7 car. BVZ says he has documented three WT 7 cars. I wonder, is the old Stires Judge is one of them?

WT7 was a no-cost option/alternate
That is why we have such a Hard Time documenting many of them.
Nothing will transcribe it on just an Invoice - probably not on a window sticker either.
He didn't save any money - he actually spent more money in buying a can of spray paint or whatever means he used to paint his spoiler Black. :D

To most folks , i suppose , it probably boiled down to which color Stripes&Decals they wanted on their White car (if they even knew they had an actual "choice")
If they saw the WT7 ads they may have even assumed they would automatically get the Black Stripes & Black Spoiler.
You can't really hurt the look of a White 70 Judge very much no matter which color decals or spoiler you put on it. And it has been proclaimed White was the highest production color for the 1970 cars.

Quint Stires car was long considered a real WT7 car.
In all due respect, he has passed on many years ago.
But there has never been anyone who knew him (and many did) who saw any proof - aka Buildsheet.
So it is sort of "un-documented" in that particular respect.
No disrespect to his person , or his Judge.
It was an Arlington Built White Judge which used to have more meaning in years gone by - than it does anymore.
He may have bought the car from the original owner and had Day 1 pictures - but nobody knows that since his passing.

I am pretty sure i have Buildsheets on 2 White 1970 Arlington Built Judges - and neither of them list WT7.
Arlington Bsheets are virtually identical to Baltimore Bsheets

Have numerous Buildsheets for different White 1970 Judges from all the USA plants that built 1970 Judges (none built in Atlanta or Framingham).
But yet , only 3 documented 1970 WT7's - defacto , have supplied documents.

The RamIV 4spd - Red Interior - WT7 was also a PMD Internal Use Car.
An eventual owner preferred it more as a conventional White Judge - and changed the decals and spoiler back to default colors.
Shet Happens both ways :)

When and/or If - anyone reads that only 3 1970 WT7 have been documented with posted documents on this Forum - 2 from Oshawa - 1 from PMD ...
They need to realize that is just the number so far after about 15 years.
It does not mean only Oshawa and PMD produced them - exclusively.
It plain and simple means it is all we have .

Could easily be that ALL the plants that produced 1970 Judges - produced some WT7 cars.
We simply don't know .
We simply have no proof . yet

What we did learn from the few cars that have surfaced over the past 15 years since i dove into them, is not all of them were produced at the Arlington Plant. Which we were lead to believe for about 25 years.

It is up to each individual to decide for themselves about the Baltimore Car that has a small segment of the Bsheet posted earlier.
And at least 3 PY Members have seen the Bsheet in person by testimony.
I do not doubt the car
But the burden of proof is not my burden, on this example.

Many times there will be many who will basically demand a full sheet proof to verify an actual authentic document.
So .... thats all i can say about it.
:)

Some more trivial trivia about that car :
It was frame-off restored and later sold for a stack of cash.
And sold at least 2 more times after its restoration.

PY member Cuzn'Greg/GregsGTO's owned the car at one time (unrestored) , i am not sure if he was the one who restored it or not. He did restore a fair amount of RamIV cars in his hey-days , but i am not sure he restored this one. I think he gathered more stuff for it and flipped it - iirc.

He never shared the Bsheet on here (it was with the car), and didn't know it was a WT7 car.
(PMD Bsheets are much different from all others)
Someone got the car and restored it , as a Default White Judge (non-WT7).
A guy in Florida got the car, and went to resale it on eBay (restored), and posted the Bsheet on the eBay listing .

I don't remember now if i made the initial discovery on eBay or if someone alerted me to it asking if it was a potential WT7 car.
But
when examined
it was indeed a 604 (WT7) option car - and the stripe/decal codes backed it up further.

BAM ! The 1st USA Plant Built WT7 was finally documented !
[not implying it was 1st CAR BUILT - only that it was the 1st one we could ever firmly document that wasn't from Oshawa.
So asking readers not to confuse that terminology. :nerd:]

So i alerted the Florida Seller on eBay and he shared everything with us, Very Cooperative enthusiast .
He pulled it off eBay and corrected it to proper WT7 Appearance.
Think he kept it for another while longer after that.

A number of years later the RamIV WT7 is back on eBay
Now with a different owner in a different part of the country.
Still in immaculate looking condition -
but had been changed back to Default Decals and White Spoiler, again. :faint:

The new seller made no publicity in the listing to it being a PMD Internal Car or a Documented WT7 .
Seemed more like a wife or heir selling off an old car left behind.
No idea where that car is now.

The 1971 WT7 Automatic - White Interior , has a similar type of discovery story.

I have owned this Judge since 1989 and wonder if it is a true WT7? Looking for good ideas on build sheet location for Pontiac plant. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T8...-no?authuser=0

The only way to document them is by finding the Buildsheet .
Pictures of the car when it was new/young is about the only other hope.

Usually on top of the gas tank on a 70-71 Pontiac Plant car.
Good Luck :)

I can't view any of the pics you have posted so far. sorry about that
My browser won't cooperate with hardly any 3rd party picture hosts.

You can attach pictures right on to your post on this site, and they will always be user friendly for as long as PY exists.

Another box below where you type the words , has an option for "manage attachments". Click on that and then you can upload pictures to your postings. :)

photos
 

photos

It looks like it was a factory paint car with factory stripes.
You would have to fill us in about all that though.

If that were the case - and i owned the car - i would call it Legit myself.
Surrounding public would want to see paper proof , as most always.
Pictures from 70 71 72 year spans might buy a few extra votes from some.

Did it sell new at a California Dealership ?
That would be an eye-brow raiser too , since it was a PMD Plant car.
Don't see that circumstance very often. (just once so far)

The build date would need to be at least Nov 69 or later too.

Good Luck on that Buildsheet if you ever get to drop the tank , if it hasn't been dropped before, you might hit the jackpot.

Thank you for sharing your car with us.
Feel free to share as much as you like - plenty of us are always interested in new discoveries of cool cars.

PMD info
 

Original owner brought car to California with in months of purchase.

Yes it appeared to be all original paint and stripes except for LF fender that had been replaced with OEM at some point before 1989. The second owner is still alive and she said she has photos when she bought it used in 1970 but has not located them yet. She claims it had black stripes and spoiler in 1970. I have original owners name but no luck tracking him down.

Hey Guys
Lots of great information here. Been collecting Pontiacs since I was 15
Question-has anyone confirmed if the 1971 Judge with option WT7 shows WT7 on the build sheet? I've heard some different stories on the 1971 showing WT7 like the 70s
Thanks again for all the information and research

The 71's will have it on their BuildSheet just like a 70 .

Only 3 or 4 of the 1971 cars have been documented.
Only 1 of them has its BuildSheet -- and is a Pontiac Plant built car.
Two others have GM of Canada documentation .

iirc - all the 1971 cars have been PMD Plant built cars, so far.
If one were to do an "advanced search" for "threads only" on WT7 , there should be a dedicated thread just on the 1971 cars.
One of the Canadian cars may have been from Framingham Plant.
Been too long to be sure, and my files are currently trapped in limbo.


The 1971 PMD Plant Buildsheet shows that the Hood Scoop callouts and Spoiler End callouts were applied with Red decals on WT7 package.
Held for Ransom decoded that tidbit/factoid.

Thank you
I have one I am tracking and I will keep you updated of the findings.

That would be great, and good luck.

The PMD Plant BuildSheets (1970 & 1971) do not spell out content like the BuildSheets from the other plants.
The option codes have to be crunched to reveal their info.
PMD Bsheet also supplies the color code for The Judge /Eyebrow decals , as a double proof.

The GM of Canada documents spell out their content with hard-codes like D80 , WT1 , WT7 , etc ....

Why do people block out phs stuff but leave key codes open for us all to see? I would only block the key code personally. Just my 2 cents.
Killer car and love seeing phs either way.

Hey Brew! That's the way you got the broadcast sheet from PMD before the days of PHS. I have a few I ordered directly form PMD back in the early 80's that had everything 'blacked-out' just like this one.

Dennis

Some WT-7 links:

WT-7 Documents

71 Judge WT7?

70 RA IV WT7

And from another website:

Ghost Cars

:)

The name Quint Stires sounds familiar. I was at the GTOAA Nationals in Redwing, MN in 2001 and I had parked my '70 Polar White Judge in the parking lot instead of registering it because although the body & paint were done, I was missing the driver's side front marker light and the interior wasn't that good.

At one point I saw 5 white '70 Judges lined up in front of the hotel. As I ran to my car to get my camera, my wife overheard someone in the crowd state "there's another white '70 Judge in the parking lot, I wonder who owns it". My wife spoke up and said it was mine. They told her to tell me to bring it up into the lineup too.

So she went to go tell me. I went back and pulled my Judge up alongside the others - I'm at the very far end in the picture. I met a guy that said he was taking pictures for HPP magazine and I'm pretty sure his name was Quint Stires. Anyway, that picture with my car in it ended up in the next HPP magazine. Picture attached.

WT7 1971
 

Did you find out if that 71 you are hunting down was a WT7 car?

70ALLRIZE, I was the one who talked to your wife. That sure was something when you parked your car and we had six white 1970 Judges all in a row. Everyone snapped a bunch of photos. Then Steve De Mars (a friend of mine from south-central Wisconsin) decided to pull his black 1970 Judge convertible onto the end of the row. It was a classic line as he got out of his car and quipped "There goes the neighborhood." I had never met Quint Stires, but I don't believe he was at that Nationals.

Just saw this! I don't come here often enough apparently. That's so cool that you are the one who talked to my wife! I remember the event well but never got to meet the person who talked to my wife that I recall. Also, I might be mistaken about Quint Stires, but I do recall someone stating that he was a photographer from High Performance Pontiac and I even got his name and number on a piece of paper but have no idea where that is currently, probable tossed it.

You weren't mistaken. Quint was at RedWing, we were good friends & I talked to him. He also introduced me to several serious GTO folks that I hadn't met before, & am still good friends with today. Quint wrote articles for HPP, & often took pics to support those articles. Believe his '70 WT-7 auto was there. The lineup of '70 White Judges facing the Casino was def impressive.

Believe that impromptu lineup took place on a Friday, as the first show was wrapping up. Remember loading up the back of my truck w some tough to find parts. That with my near 5 year old son in tow (whew!). If not Friday, it was def the day before the drag races at RockFalls in WI.

This was the back to back shared location national show for GTOAA & POCI, a forerunner to the later CoVentions.

Thanks for the input. That's cool that you were friends with Quint. That was the first GTOAA convention I ever went to. I had just gotten the body work and paint job done the year before. I don't remember if it was Friday when we lined up the '70 Judges, I just remember the weather was hot. It was such a thrill to line up my Judge with the others that day!!

I stand corrected. Quint Stires was at Red Wing. I checked my 2001 issue of High Performance Pontiac and he authored the GTOAA Nationals coverage. That was also my very first National (Wisconsin Dells was my second). It was so cool to buy a magazine and see my car in it, even if it was in a group photo setting. The HPP article also included my car in a smaller group of four red Judges. After the big Judge lineup broke up, the red cars stuck around for more photos together.