Switched to a Antigravity lithium starting battery - Results
 

So I've been having hard starting issues with my 70 TA since I switched to Holley Terminator X EFI. The starter was struggling to generate enough cranking RPM to get the crank and cam sensors to sync so the ECU would fire the coils. This led to lots of frustration and the occasional kick-back. My engine is a reasonably spicy 484" IA2, Stock Highports, Northwind, 105mm TB, 13.8:1, 270'ish - 280'ish @.050 around .710' lift. on pump E85.

Battery is located in the trunk and I did the "big 3" upgrade. Wires are from GP Audio oxygen free copper (OFC) 2/0 power and grounds. 1/0 OFC from battery to starter. Very heavy duty/nice wiring.
https://gpcaraudio.com/collections/i...-bs-ofhc-cable

Starter is a Powermaster XS 9510, which fits great in a 2nd gen with 2" Hooker headers.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...0/make/pontiac

Previous battery was Napa Legend AGM 7565 Group 65 with 850CCA - 46.5 lbs
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BAX7...wUUZdngUGS7D7A

New batter is an Antigravity Battery Lithium Car Battery with Re-Start AG-24-60-RS BCI Group 24 - 1800CCA - 19.25 lbs
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVB-AG-24-60-RS

I used the Holley datalogging feature to record cranking RPM. I could not get an exact RPM until the crank and cam sensors were sync'ed but you can see on the graph where the cranking RPM was topping out for each battery. The AGM is on a scale of 0 - 300 RPM and the Lithium is on a 0 - 500 RPM.

Napa AGM: 13.1 volts resting voltage, 10.3 volts during cranking (ranged from 10.3 - 10.6 during cranking) 110 RPM cranking

Antigravity Lithium: 13.3 volts resting voltage, 12.5 volts during cranking (ranged from 12.5-12.8 volts during cranking) 325 RPM cranking The Antigravity battery maxed out the starter at 325 RPM. You can tell by the sound of it that it literally cannot spin any faster.

So there are some real-world results from the latest in battery technology. The Antigravity batteries are quite expensive but it was 100% worth it to me. It also has a "Re-Start" feature that rescues you if your battery happens to go dead. Prior to going lithium I was in the process of switching to an X2 AGM 1150 CCA battery but the 80 lbs weight got me looking at lithium's.

Good info thanks for sharing

Side note. Just out of curiosity, how are you handling the crank and cam sensor for your Terminator X?

Cam signal is handled by a Holley Dual-Sync distributor. Normally this would be fine for both the cam and crank signals, but I'm running individual coils and they weren't happy with the Holley signal. I added a Holley 12-1X crank trigger with hall effect sensor. I had a custom bracket made to use the Holley kit on a Pontiac.

Holley Dual-Sync: Part #565-207BK
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...arts/565-207BK

Crank trigger: Holley 556-171 7-inch 12-1X Crank Trigger Kit, SBC
https://www.holley.com/products/part...8b7963aeb56668

Lots of info on my set-up here https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=858788

A lot of the TA and TA/2 cars are running the lithium batteries too. Definitely less weight, but also less prone to vibration damage and more consistent voltage available through a wider charge range. This is the steering wheel dash in a 900HP TA Camaro during the warmup cycle. We take the oil temp to 130, do a leak check, header tube temperature check, and verify data collection before going out.

Lithium battery voltage rarely varies more than 0.1 volts.

I've been transitioning to Li-Fe batteries in all of my equipment and vehicles as their current batteries die. Very happy with the technology. Zero maintenance, seem to hold a charge forever and so far everything starts better.

Yes they are expensive, on the order of twice what a GOOD lead-acid battery costs.

The starter you have is a 4.4:1 gear reduction starter.
You might have been able to solve your starting problem by going to a 3.75"1 ratio starter. 25% more cranking speed.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/p...1/make/pontiac

Have you put your car on a dyno to see what your HP gain might be after you went with injection and the latest ignition system ?

Unfortunately that starter motor configuration (larger portion closer to the flywheel) doesn’t fit great on my car. I tried the Powermaster 9410 and had to send it back because we couldn’t get it clocked right to fit well. The Powermaster I used has the larger portion of the motor further away from the flywheel… if that makes sense.

I plan on putting the TA on the hub dyno within the next month or so. I don’t think it makes any additional power with the EFI. I probably lost a few horsepower going from a Dominator and Victor to a Northwind. Maybe I picked a little bit of it up going to E85 but I kind of doubt it. With the old set-up it ran around 129-130 mph in the 1/4 @3700’ish pounds. I’m thinking it makes in the 630hp - 650hp range.

Perfect timing, my GTO on Holley HP and my 12-1 crank trigger is having sync issues from low starting rpm, same as my GN at 120-130rpm. I'm getting the ATX-30HD for my GN and now that you showed this, I'll get the Group 24, 40ah = 1500ca for my GTO so it fires asap.

Dragncar, didn't think about starter ratio, great tip.

Ive been considering a lithium battery for a few years now, but they are just so expensive, Im not finding any good lithium batteries for twice what a good lead acid battery costs, more like 4 to 5 times. A good name brand lead acid around 600-800cca is about $150-$200 for diehard or other house brands at most auto part stores... the one linked in this thread is $1000!

Do you or anyone have suggestions for other lithiums that dont cost as much but are still good quality, I recall TAman used a braille brand like 5 years ago, I looked at some and they were a little more reasonable price, curious how that held up after some time?

I've been using Dry Cell, Shuriken and now Kinetik HC800 (750ca) and while they're much lighter they're not more powerful. They're great in my little Talon but in my GN it's not enough cranking rpm.

I really appreciate this thread. Always want to keep up with latest technology and learn new things I can apply to my cars and use in my classes. Also like the fact that you included real world results and actual test results with data. I was interested enough to spend over 45 minutes on the Antigravity web site looking at various batteries and watched the long video on the site. Also spent some time evaluating the warranty and costs of the batteries. I would strongly recommend spending some time on the site if buying a $ 950.00 battery is a significant cost for you. Like everything in our hobby, every part has a plus side and and a down side, and a warranty to consider. The energy density vs weight can not be questioned vs a lead acid battery IMO. They are really impressive. Also the higher sitting voltage is significant as seen in the cranking RPM tests. Carbureted collector car engines need 80-100 cranking RPM to start right up and provide no issues. Aftermarket EFI engines that sync cam and crank signals apparently need allot more RPM to start reliably as evidenced in thread thread. OE EFI systems need 120-160 cranking RPM approx. So this new LI battery solves a problem. The very low weight is a big advantage as well. The battery management system and the auto-restart system is a neat feature too.

So what is the true cost currently for this cool new technology? Pretty high IMO, at least right now. I can buy a flooded lead acid battery from NAPA, 800 CCA, 2 year free replacement for $153.00. A better AGM 860 CCA battery, 55 AH, $218.00. It weighs 43 lbs. and has a 3 year free replacement warranty. So the Antigravity battery cost almost 5 times as much as the AGM battery and 6 times as much as a flooded battery. But consider it has just over twice the CCA capacity of either lead acid battery which is impressive. If you need it to make your EFI engine crank and start efficiently, it is decent investment I guess.

The only thing I really had a problem with on the Antigravity web site was their claim of "double to triple" the life of a lead acid battery and a claim of "8-10 year" average life span. If this is true, why do they NOT back up these claims with their warranty? I spent some time studying the warranty on the car batteries. It is very weak IMO. They offer a 3 year free replacement warranty which is decent. But it comes with a boatload of fine print and exclusions. Read it carefully. It excludes racing, any modifications to the OE charging system, failed charging components and a bunch of other specific exclusions. I can just see them weaseling their way out of honoring any kind of warranty obligation by pointing to tiny fine print. They offer only a 40% pro-rate and 30% pro-rate off MSRP in year 4 and 5. So the warranty ends completely 3-5 years BEFORE their claimed "average battery life" That is a weak warranty IMO. You also have to ship it back to CA for evaluation and register the battery in 30 days after purchase. Lots of loopholes to jump through. They also mention you need to purchase a specific battery charger type to charge these batteries if needed.

So in summary, do your homework before making the switch as it could be an expensive solution to a problem the vast majority of our cars don't have. But again, I really appreciate the information. Knowledge is power!

Great thread, I no longer trust any warranty, but it's clear they're saying their battery life is great too get people to do the math on spending $950 if it lasts say 3x longer, it's another fake marketing ploy.

The Kinetik 1200watt (near 1100ca) at $150 and 28lbs seems like a good next option for those looking for a bump in cranking power and low weight.

Their 1800watt (near 1650ca) at $215 and 50lbs is probably a similar cranking rpm result. But that's 31 lbs heavier but also $800 cheaper.

A traditional alternator can charge the Lion without issue?

Interesting thread and appreciate the effort to document real results.

Caught my attention because I am currently converting my camper from FLA to LiFePO4.

My first reaction was it sounds like a very expensive solution to an unexpected problem.

The crank and cam are locked mechanically, right? So why can't the Holley system make some "assumptions" about the "signal sync" just for starting? I'm ignorant but seems like the EFI is putting quite a constraint on starting when there isn't a fundamental need for higher RPM, at least as far as starting an engine.

Carb engines start at lower RPM, why does EFI have to add this burden?

????

Mike

I appreciate your input. You brought up a great point regarding the warranty. I was initially looking at the Full Spectrum Power P.Motive IPT7.PM2K13. It has 2000CCA vs the Antigravity’s 1800CCA and is a little more expensive. The Full Spectrum Power is also only 36 amp hour vs the Antigravity’s 60 amp hour. I went back and forth trying to decide until I read the warranty differences.

The Full Spectrum Power only offers a 1 year full replacement warranty and is then prorated months 13-24 at 50% and then months 24-36 at 25%.

https://www.fullspectrumpower.com/bl...anty-explained

The Antigravity battery warranty is below:

The 5 Year Limited Warranty is on a pro-rated basis based from the original date of purchase.
Only ONE battery replacement will be given under warranty.
1-3 Years — Free Replacement
4th year — 40% discount from retail MSRP
5th year — 30% discount from retail MSRP

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...es/automotive/

I forgot to mention that I also purchased the Antifravity battery tracker add-on, but it is currently on back order and won’t arrive for a couple weeks. It lets you full monitor your battery via Bluetooth from your phone. I no longer need to leave the car on a tender or worry if it’s has enough juice… Technology can be pretty cool :D

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...acker-lithium/

These batteries are designed for use with an alternator. They do have charging voltage and amperage limits though. I’d have to look it up again but I think it was in the 240amp alternator range and it must charge below 14.8 volts. Again, I’d have to dig for the exact info but that’s in the ballpark.

I had a 17 pound Blaille battery in my car for many many years, got it in Summit's discount section. Being a project car it sat forever, and there was something drawing off of it as it would go dead after xx days if I didn't remove a cable. It would charge back up and be good as new, that battery was impressive. It finally gave up about a year ago.

Now to Lithium... The LiTime batteries from amazon have a good rep, and they're cheap. I got into lithium batteries 4-5 years ago to take weight off my river boat. When Dakota came out with a dual purpose battery(can be used as a cranking or electronics battery)I got one for starting my boat. They didn't say anything about the charging requirements, and I found out it was putting a big strain on my charging system. I swapped it out for a Braille and put the Dakota in my car.

There's tons of manufacturers of lithium batteries now. There's plenty of YouTube videos also explaining the differences and quality of them. I'd say the #1 rule of thumb is, if the brand you're considering doesn't have a phone number associated to it, don't buy it!

Full Spectrum Power has a cool test on their website comparing the cranking RPM of their batteries vs other manufacturers. It’s worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/zuJ6i9Yfrdo?si=ReFXmxhpBs-yeynG

Also our very own Justin Shearer (Big Chief/BrandX) did a really cool lithium test on his Midwest streetcars YouTube channel. Great head to head test with real data and results. Wish he’d visit the board again and contribute. He’s very knowledgeable.

https://youtu.be/d_m7PbDFdo0?si=8J1Xwcg8lsId464K

Any Li-Fe battery you choose you need to check it's compatibility with older charging systems. I think a lot of them require 14+ charging volts.

I've been getting batteries from these guys for my utility vehicles and equipment, all pretty late model. https://earthxbatteries.com/

Tons of info on their site. I like that the fact that they make batteries approved for use in Aircraft.

Thank you. That is the reason I asked. I know / knew that there may be different charging requirements.

in my mind I was envisioning a battery conditioner / Isolater between the alternator and the battery.

I have a 535 Pontiac with 11:1 and terminator x with cnp and use the cam and crank signals from the holley dual sync and it always starts right up no issue. I am using the XS D2700 battery listed as 1140cca with Powermaster 9410 starter. It cranks around 200rpm. I do notice in the data logs during the first half second or so of cranking that rpm does show syncing though.

Nice combo you have there! Mine syncs and starts at 200 rpm as well. That seems to be enough rpm for everything to communicate properly. I’m curious which cam you are running? Ballpark specs? Im wondering how much larger/smaller it is than mine. Are you running Holley smart coils or LS coils? Do you happen to remember your dwell settings?

Great thread, looking like 1500ca Lithium is the threshold on power and 200rpm a known good cranking rpm minimum for insta-starts. 110rpm for both me and R 70 Judge = embarrassing efi starts.

BTW, the Antigravity techs say Lithium isn't tested in CCA so only CA numbers are real for Lithium.

I'm doing 2 cars soon with Lithium swaps so I'll add data too but so far I think we're seeing the value of the battery power and cranking rpm for aftermarket Efi.

No one was really talking about this so big thumbs up to this thread.

Thanks! I have followed your threads too. Interesting learning you have gone through. Funny fact but I went the other way than you from Northwind 4150 sniper xflow and now to the CNP 4500 mpfi with Wilson throttle body. I thought maybe I was holding the 535 with wide ports back a little. I can't tell yet but it definitely idles amd responds better now. I have the MSD smart coils set at 4.5msec dwell for street application. Cam butler specd is comp hitec lobe with 268/275 at .050, 112 lobe sep and .700 ish lift with 1.65s.

I suspect they don't spec cca as that is a lithium battery's weak point. Probably not a real concern for us folks here though. My xs 2700d CA is rated at 1300 though. Half the cost of the Li but a lot heavier. Good things its in the trunk though. Lol

Here is my 2 cents worth. I was in the market for a Lithium battery, so I spoke to Tony the owner of Sick Goat about it. He said they had friends who tried many different brands with mixed result in the longevity department. But found that the brand called "Voltphreaks" lasted the longest they had found. So, I purchased a Voltphreaks 16-volt Lithium battery and charger...you need a specific lithium charger to charge them! Something to remember. Total with charger was $1200 a lot of money but I was after weight saving and they only weigh 8.25 Lbs. This was back in 2019 and it's still going strong. Never loses a charge even when my car sat with the engine out for a year it didn't need a charge! My engine is a 525 cube 14-1 compression 900+ horsepower carbureted engine. It cranks right up every time and to say the least I'm super happy! It even has an on off button that you can shut the battery down when not in use. It also has a sensor that will shut it down say if you left the lights on so you will still have enough power to start the engine. I've never had an issue but there is one thing the Voltphreaks website is no longer up, and I don't know if the company is still around, I hope so because I would definitely buy another one if and when this one dies.

Just got the ATX-30HD 970ca for my GN, no car terminals included and their little mounting block is M6 so nothing fits.

I need the posts with threaded top mount and the Shuriken SAE20 are 10mm too long of screw (short screw one).

R70 Judge, you buy the Anti terminals AG-TA-1?

That’s a bummer. No, my AG-24-60-RS came with the terminals. I think the battery you got is more geared towards moto sports applications, so maybe that’s why they weren’t included? I guess I didn’t take any pictures of the new set-up but I have some of the old battery and billet blocks. High quality wiring is imperative. Oxygen free copper (OFC) 2/0 power and grounds. 1/0 OFC from battery to starter

That looks nice, I like the extension off the posts for other power needs.

They said the same thing, ATX-30HD is still considered a motorcycle battery, though it's 970ca and their best seller because autos are buying. Charge $10 more, throw in terminals, big deal, it's $560 already and this battery is clearly the one cars that don't need over 1000ca are buying for the weight and cranking power vs motorcycles who clearly don't need 1000ca.

I'm gonna test this in my GN first and log, then try in the GTO and see if this is all we need to fire fast.

So early results...

Napa 800cca battery, 190rpm cranking, mostly 3+ sec cranks and many 5+ sec.

Antigravity ATX-30hd battery, 140rpm cranking but in the 4x I've started it, every time starts within 1 sec????

I'll post logs soon, don't have them on my phone but there might be something else at play here beyond my pay grade.

ATX-30hd was 13.3 volts fresh from Antigravity (they are the only ones that sell this battery, all other batteries vendors can sell).

Maybe the starting and cranking volts are helping other components fire up faster and cranking rpm is one strong variable but not the end all.

Volts at battery terminal while cranking might help interpret.

We're cables the same for both?

Since it starts so fast you could try unplugging the coils to get a better read on the cranking rpm just for testing purposes.

Agreed. Voltage drop is also a good thing to look at

Exact same everything, battery swap done within minutes of each other logs.

Napa 800cca = 11.4v cranking average
Antigravity 30hd = 12.2v cranking average

The cranking volts is almost a full volt higher so maybe that's a big piece of this vs just battery cranking amps in general.

I will say this, if this does the same thing in my GN then saving $500 vs the Antigravity Group 24 battery makes me happy since I wasn't pumped about a $1050 battery.

After a bunch more starts today that are within 1-2 seconds tops, this is legit and cured my issue. I'd get lucky and have 1-10 starts like this with the 850cca (probably 950ca) battery and a bunch of embarrassing ones but not even 1 on 10 with the Antigravity so far was even close to bend sad, the are all awesome or normal Efi starting you'd expect.

Now holding down this little gremlin is turning into a chore, got on McMaster Carr a

5/16 -18 x 8" bolt coming for the factory hold down and threaded hole.

im of no help in the lithium battery department, but i am running 16 volt system with my holley efi, a converted 12si alternator, and a 16 volt turbo start battery. more is def better in my experience. I was running it with the carb and magnafuel 500 pump for better starting this car will never go back to 12 volt. i may be able to get a cranking rpm number for you next time its off the storage lift.

I'm sure you are happy it's working better now!

I expected higher voltage to generate higher cranking rpm, but seems not for you...




Can anyone explain why a battery delivering higher voltage to the same motor wouldn't make it spin faster? Is this because the Antigravity battery can't deliver as much current, even at the higher voltage? In other words, is the torque of a starter motor current-limited, independent of voltage?

Mike

I've had great results with Braille and XSPower AGM's. One XSPower worked great for over a decade, and a Braille lasted 12+ years.

CCA's are VERY misleading on AGM's, compared to a lead-acid. In my experiences, a quality AGM (not the AutoZone/O'Reilly "AGM") with about 400CCA will outperform a lead-acid of 1000CCA.

I've used the XS Power S925 and S975 with several larger inch street/strip motors, and they were more than powerful enough (and less than half the weight of a lead-acid). About the same cost as most lead-acids now, too.

Lithium looks interesting, but I'm happy with the AGMs at this point.

Update...

Completed the full Antigravity install, got a new battery tray and then drilled through it for the Antigravity tray to be solid.

Antigravity ATX-30hd 970ca (7.25lbs) 7-25
AG-TA-1 terminals (M6)
AG-BT-LC-30 battery tray
Hold down bracket bolt OEM = 5/16-18 x 8
OEM battery tray GMK433230068
5/16-18 SS bolts into car body
AG-BT-LC-30 holder for ATX-30HD battery
Ag holder screws into OEM tray 1/4-20 x 1
Vgate terminals (M4, M5, 1/2" nut)

Quick update: It has been a few months now and the battery has performed flawlessly. I’m very happy with the purchase. I’ve yet to even stick it on the battery tender.

I recently added the Antigravity battery tracker plus. It’s a pretty cool monitoring tool. It works through Bluetooth with an app on your phone. It continuously monitors voltage and will alert you should your voltage drop from sitting. It has a couple of testing features that monitor cranking voltage and charging voltages at idle and at cruising rpm. It also has a gps feature to see where your car is located.

It looks like this model can work with both lead acid/AGM batteries and Lithium. Seems like a great way to never get stuck in the pits with a surprise dead battery before your next round.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...tooth-tracker/

The one I put in my ATV has been great, I basically just don't even think about it anymore, no charging in the winter, nothing, it just starts every time. And I've used it with a tow behind 45 gallon sprayer, running the pump, often with the engine off. No problems for 3 years now.

Sorry, I haven’t read through entire thread, can a regular 12v alternator be used with these batteries? Are the fears of them catching fire old news?

Almost all the vehicle lithium batteries are Lithium Iron Phosphate, very safe compared to the Lithium Ion type batteries seen catching fire in phones etc.

Typically they are compatible with any charging system made in the last 25 years or so.

Antigravity
 

Just a side note. I replaced the 45 lb conventional battery with an antigravity ATX-30-HD in my ‘64 GTO race car. I run a 75 amp Denso alternator. Motor is a 12.5:1 compression, 4.5 inch stroke 488 and cranking compression is 210 psi. Powermaster starter. I have a 16” electric fan, A1000 fuel pump, trans cooler with electric fan and an MSD 6A ignition. Bottom line, it spins the motor like turbo! I can’t believe that little battery that weighs nothing can store enough energy to perform like that. No between rounds battery charging and after unloading at home I hooked up the charger and it topped off in no time!
PS I set a PB of 9.25 at 142.5 mph in my single 4bbl foot break GTO.

Yes, I use my regular 140 amp alternator with the Antigravity battery. No, the fire thing is definitely old news.

My engine is nearly 14:1 and it spins at 325 rpm now while cranking with the new battery. It definitely helps with syncing the cam/crank sensors and keeping the EFI parts happy.

I have been thinking of installing this one in a hotrod I am building for street use. Main reason is the 31 pickup with a Sbc is short on space to install. Do. You think this battery would handle electric fan, Ac , electric fuel pump, halogen lights?No stereo. Again, this will be for street/ daily driving. Will have a 100amp 10si alternator.

Plus it looks like it only weighs 5 lbs


Thanks for any advice!

Li-ion cell voltage is 3.7V
2-cell 7.4V
3-cell 11.1V
4-cell 14.8V

My 130A alternator typically shows 14.4V. Sounds safe to get a good charge.
Seems a full-charge is being avoided, so perhaps these Lead-acid car replacements are over-designed to get ( compensate ) the charge capacity.