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Old 09-21-2023, 01:47 PM
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Default Honest Opinion Needed on Re: Novice Taking on Big Project

This summer I was given a 69 Lemans Convertible 350, TH4000 with numbers matching engine and drivetrain. It needs minor mechanical work but major body work. That is front and rear floor pans need patching, driver's side fender needs replacement, needs full trunk pan, and every other body panel needs some level of rust repair. The frame looks solid from what I can see and the body mounts look like replacements. A friend is gonna eventually sell me a decent driver's side fender off his GTO and I already acquired a mint trunk lid. The mechanical side is no issue but bodywork is a skill I haven't gained yet.

I do have a Hobart 140 mig welder and have only done spot welding with it - not a whole lot. Since I have two other nice drivable Pontiacs, the wait isn't a big deal. My thought process is I can gain some mig welding skill patching the floor pans first, then onto the trunk pan. Then I would like to tackle the body panels.

The plan is to make it roadworthy, patch the floor pans and then slow walk the rest of the body work. Should a novice even attempt this type of thing or best left to the pros? Seems pricing on bodywork would be more than the value of the completed car. I welcome all thoughts and comments on this- especially from any similarly unskilled folks out there who have attempted this type level of work.
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Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project

Last edited by grivera; 09-21-2023 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 09-21-2023, 01:54 PM
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Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 09-21-2023, 01:58 PM
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Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 09-21-2023, 01:58 PM
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Life is short.

Personally I’d pay a competent shop to do the floors and trunk. Then you’d have a solid driving project.

Body repairs might be something you could learn on as you go, but they’re kinda optional. Making the car perfect is gonna be a lot of work and then you always worry about every scratch or ding, be careful before you get too deep. You’re opening a huge can of worms as soon as you start cutting into that rust that’s all over that car, there’s 10 times more rust underneath that you can’t see.

Personally I’d stop scrutinizing it and just drive it as is after the floors and trunk are fixed. If the car is still structurally sound then maybe just patching some areas of the floors and trunk using POR-15 and fiberglass cloth would be fine.

You got the car for free right? So spending some money at a shop to make it solid shouldn’t really bother you.

If you really truly want a nice solid ‘69 convertible then sell this one and buy a western/southern one that’s not riddled with rust bubbling. Far cheaper and faster in the timeline of life to just buy a better car to begin with.

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Old 09-21-2023, 02:18 PM
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I can't really advise you on what you should do as everyone is different. Bart makes a great point. It took 10 years of my life, including interruptions, to do mine. So, even age is a factor. One thing I've learned is that time is worth a lot more than money.
With that said...
I had never done any bodywork or welding when I tackled mine but I learned. Replaced a lot of the roof and quarters, trunk pan and many more small patches. I made plenty of mistakes that I won't make on the next one but I was able to work my way through them.
My thinking was, "The worst that can happen is that I'll eff it up and guess what?... It's already effed up!"... and when I finish, I'll have a welder.
Nine years later and no shabby bodywork or rust is popping through and it still looks good. The only person that's ever touched this car in 19 years of ownership other than myself is the guy that sprayed the color and glued the vinyl top on...and I was actually there with him doing that!
But I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to this kind of stuff. I like knowing exactly what's been done and how.

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Old 09-21-2023, 02:28 PM
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Great points, Bart!

That's a beautiful ride, Greg - you should be very proud of the work. And good to know you were a novice welder when you started!

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 09-21-2023, 02:39 PM
tjs72lemans tjs72lemans is offline
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I'm with Greg on this one. You already have a welder. Floor pans are a good place to start as no one else sees them and it gives you a strong foundation. Trunk pan may be more work, but, again now you've got some experience using it. I'm no welder or body man, but over the years I learned this stuff as I progressed. I actually accomplished two frame off restorations all by myself, including paint. My 55 Chevy is 10 years since finished and still looks like when I finished it. It's harder every day to find someone to do this stuff for you and reasonably. Doing it yourself allows you time to progress at your pace and as funds allow. Once it's drivable and solid, you can pick away at the body.
Last month they both got a trophy at a car show again. Sorry for the sideway pic.
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Old 09-21-2023, 03:04 PM
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Age is definitely a factor. Cars take way more time to complete than you ever realize. Personal enjoyment also comes into play. Working on my project is enjoyable and yes, sometimes challenging. I also have a Hobart 140 that I haven’t even used yet but I’m going to try to do some patchwork myself. There’s a good chance that I’ll never complete my car but I’ll do the best I can. The older I get, the less I get done. I do not plan to make it pretty on the outside, just mechanically 100%. To me, with the cost to have anyone do work on your car these days that knows what they’re doing is just too high. I say do it yourself or buy a car that’s done already. There’s plenty of people on here to help you out too.
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Old 09-26-2023, 08:14 PM
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"This required hundreds and hundreds of hours of reading & watching videos to get a grasp on how to do things, and even then I made a TON of very costly mistakes and spent $$$ to get to this point. Which is all to say, a hobbiest can pull this off with the right tools, time, money, and mindset" mrennie

This is what I've been doing. Reading archived post, watching hours and hours of you tube paint / body work / paint guns / maintenance of painting equipment videos etc. Fritz's, paint society and many others. I take notes and save valuable post in a sperate folder for future reference.
i.e. how to fix runs, how it fix orange peel, how to cut and butt metal etc.

As some here might remember I got an estimate for a paint job early last year for 25 + k (very minimal rust)
So I built a 24 x 24 heated and cooled detached garage (just finished) and with encouragement I received here, I will paint my car at home.

While I tend agree with drive it as is and enjoy asap, I still want to paint it. I think this is partly because as silly as it sounds, I've have always held auto body guys in highest regards (except MUSLCAH lol just kidding). It's always been the part of classic car repair I never thought I could do because it's a huge undertaking and constant opportunity for making a ton of money costing mistakes plus it does take skill.

So grivera I say go for it. From reading your post on this site, I know you'll do your homework and be prepared. Good luck.

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Old 10-06-2023, 05:09 PM
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huge, huge key here. you have pontiac drivers already.

many times while restoring/building mine I thought to myself "wish I had one to drive while doing this".

its all an enjoyable process. having not had a driver during mine I never thought I would miss the process but I do. and I just finished mine. drove it today. looking for another car already. and looking forward to driving mine during the process!

love my shop time during winter. heater on, football game on......ahhhhhh

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Old 09-21-2023, 03:21 PM
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By the way, there's no way I could have experienced the amount of success I did on my project without this forum and some great members who really know what they're talking about. I learn something every day here.

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Old 09-21-2023, 06:55 PM
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Greg - would you do it all over again?

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
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Old 09-21-2023, 08:20 PM
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Yes, especially if the ten years came back with the deal!...lol
I've always been a tinkerer though. I loved doing it. I would do some things differently however.
I guess that the best way to answer that though is that I have another project car here that needs about the same amount of work.

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Old 09-21-2023, 09:12 PM
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I’d look for another body ....why waste your time ,with something that someone already stuffed with filler.

Like noted above....get something from Colorado, Idaho, Texas, California if need be. But look them over good. Just because they are in that state ,doesn’t mean it’s always been there..

I bet on a quiet day....you can hear that car rust.

Run Forrest Run

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Old 12-24-2023, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSLCAH View Post
I’d look for another body ....why waste your time ,with something that someone already stuffed with filler.
Like noted above....get something from Colorado, Idaho, Texas, California if need be. But look them over good. Just because they are in that state ,doesn’t mean it’s always been there..
I bet on a quiet day....you can hear that car rust.
Run Forrest Run
Muslcar, I am in total agreement with you on this.
I do not think this is the car for a beginner that just retried. I also believe that no one could restore this car to high standards and not be totally underwater with it. I'm not sure if would make sense for anyone to take on restoring the car.

Even just getting it to a structurally sound and safe to drive condition is going to take a lot of time and be a considerable expense. And afterwards you've still got a car with a lot of rust issues that show. Even with getting the car for free, you are still underwater.

grivera,
Check out the detailed build for the '69 convertible that I am just completing. The link is in my signature. I went west to get a better car to start with. It still had a few rust issues that I had to deal with.

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Old 09-21-2023, 10:10 PM
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CAN you do it? It depends on how persistent you are, what kind of results you are expecting, and if you have the $$$ and time to actually get it back together after you start cutting.

SHOULD you do it? That is a really tough question only you can answer. If you lose interest quick when things go wrong, then this is not a good project for you. Based on the pictures, I predict there will be much more metal work than you expect once you start stripping to bare metal.

Your welder will be fine for body panels, that is one plus.

Financially, it will probably not make sense to farm all the work out, so I think you need to decide what level of restoration you want and either pass (and drive it as-is or sell it), or sink the $ into it and do some or most of it yourself.

If you want do it yourself and enjoy learning new skills (and have the aptitude to learn from reading or watching videos), you may surprise yourself. Expect to spend twice what you think it will cost and take twice as long to get it completed, as there are so many unexpected problems that pop up with rusty cars.

Are you still working or retired? This will make a HUGE difference on how long this could take. If you are able to spend 20-30 hours a week on the project, you could have the metal work done in a few months. If you are only able to work on weekends, this will slow things down considerably and will result in lots of lost time getting back to where you were when you pick up where you left off.

I am a hobbiest with no formal body work or paint training. My day job was a telecom tech and now management. I have a mechanical aptitude but am very fortunate to be able to see something being done or read how to do something and then go try it and make it work out the majority of the time. I had never touched a paint gun before and my welding experience was "hobbiest average", based on one semester of Grade 10 welding class. Over years of working on this car I have learnt how to successfully butt weld panels, use a hammer and dolly, block sand, handle a paint gun, cut and buff, etc. This required hundreds and hundreds of hours of reading & watching videos to get a grasp on how to do things, and even then I made a TON of very costly mistakes and spent $$$ to get to this point. Which is all to say, a hobbiest can pull this off with the right tools, time, money, and mindset.

One thing for sure, it is MUCH easier to take it apart than it is to put back together. It takes serious perseverance and stubbornness to keep going when things go wrong or are worse than expected.

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Old 09-21-2023, 11:15 PM
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Thanks for the well thought out response and beautiful work!!. I don’t want a body off type resto car but also don’t want hidden issues that don’t get addressed. I do pick up skills pretty quickly and I always see projects through- that is a curse many times due to my stubbornness. I love projects and the feeling of repairing something that doesn’t work - in fact I enjoy that phase as much as driving these cars. I don’t like paying for something I know I can do better - while that doesn’t apply in this case the extent of the work would be very expensive. And it is difficult to find someone local to do this at a reasonable cost and the thought of a long distance project doesn’t appeal to me one bit for obvious reasons. I’m hoping that patching the floor pans serve as a barometer of what I will be willing to endure. As far as time is concerned I can retire anytime I want and I plan to work a second career. That in itself may help pay for some of the work assuming I find a reputable shop. The floor pans are a must so that I can at least have a functional interior and ability to drive the car.

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'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
‘66 Lemans, 455, KRE D-Ports, TH350, 12 bolt 3.90 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears (Traded)
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project

Last edited by grivera; 09-21-2023 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 09-22-2023, 02:03 AM
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Will, we all started with little, to no skills, and the way you learn is to do. If you have the garage space, materials, and tools that you can afford to tie up for awhile, then you can commit to giving it a try.

I might suggest you strip the car to bare metal, then assess how much metal, and how much rust is under the paint/filler. Myself I'd strip the car before you even fix the floor, and trunk, no sense even starting the bottom restoration before you know what is hidden under the paint. After you see what work is ahead then make a decision if you want to farm it out, or attempt it yourself. If it's stripped you could even get accurate estimates to do the work. It's damn near impossible to give a body estimate without seeing the bare metal bones of the car.

When they strip the body is when the price jumps up to much more that was figured without seeing whats under it. Everyone gets mad, the body shop stops working on it because the little guy only budgeted the estimate amount, and he has to save up more money on it, and it's taking up valuable space at the body shop in the mean time. The body shop management is disgusted, and the owner is too.

That's how I'd suggest ascertaining which way you should go, and that's from real world experience. I'm no body man, but when I was in my late teens I did all the grunt work for a neighbor that ran a body shop out of his parents house. Over the years I've known many, many, body men so I knew people I could have do passable body work on my own cars. I'm not good at body work, but I can tell hack work, over good work.

There's going to be a huge sacrifice of spare time if you do it yourself, and if you want to have it done timely, it will be like working 2, 40 hour jobs. If you want to get it done at a slower pace than you can spend less time per week on it. When a project languishes is when people stop working on them, and they get sold for pennies on a dollar to someone else. It's hard dirty work so expect it, more frustration, than fun. If you're not a quitter, you can accomplish it. You'll also avoid body shop jail if you do most/all the work.

If you have a Vo Tech handy, take some night classes in auto body, and possibly welding, learn some basics. Getting your feet wet at a Vo tech may also give you some perspective of whether to farm out the work, or attempt it yourself.

Hopefully some of this is helpful to making an informed decision.

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Old 11-29-2023, 08:49 AM
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2017-11-09_12-05-10 by Kerry Grubb, on Flickr

My ta was in much worse condition than what your car looks like. I dabbled very little in the car world before I started this resto. Mainly I did it just because. My buy in price wasnt that great and I figured if I failed I could afford to lose what I had in it. I am a carpenter by trade, have been working with my hands for 45 years. I also have a great attention to detail which helped. I am not a mechanic and still know only enough about motors to be dangerous. I did everything on this car including paint, exception being the motor rebuild. I had almost 5 years in this. I am 5 years in on a second restoration of a 79 ta, should be done soon.

In my case I could not afford the car I have by any means. Putting it together myself and paying for parts as I could afford with spare money is one of the reasons it took so long. When the car was finished I had zero debt. It is easily worth 5x my build cost at this point.

You need to do a deep inner look/soul search and decide for yourself what to do with your car. All of the previous post have their own merits. I know people that would say what you have is a parts car at best, others I know have built complete beautiful cars out of a whole lot less. Personally I think this car looks fine for a resto. If I ever get my 79 ta done I too was 'given' a car that is next on my list. Its so bad that I dont think it could even be considered a parts car!! But I have another car to drive and I enjoy working on them as a hobby.

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Old 12-21-2023, 12:26 PM
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Having another classic to drive is a great point, and you won't as easily suffer from wanting to drive and hopelessness/loss of patience.

I too say have it stripped and make a full assessment. You can make a chassis roller and even rotisserie, both will help tons.

Being a convertible, you will need to weld in braces to hold the structure together and roughly aligned while it gets worked on.

Do some homework, AND, find someone that can stop by and help or at least give pointers. Having someone to physically look at it is key to helpful/accurate advice.

You should be able to find someone who can do work on the side, since you have a proper workspace. Pick an area you want repaired and watch it being done. That will also give you a better understanding of the general process and more accurate expectation. The money spent will be well worth it, and you may be able to reduce some costs by doing certain tedious work.

Full frame cars are easy to do a chassis refurb, and later the body can be transferred to the frame.

You also have to take into account the tools & supplies costs, and how much of a mess it makes. The costs and cleanup labor are a factor of the entire project, and you need to be aware of it. Having the right tools makes the difference between a Picasso and a Rembrandt. Some you might be able to rent or borrow, but it's not very likely.

When you calculate the time, times it by 5. That will be a more likely scenario.

Body & paint really isn't that difficult, but it is time consuming, requires patience, and persistence. If you decide to go for it, commit, and don't give up. There may be gaps of time where there's no progress, be prepared for that, as well as potential re-do of unacceptable work.


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The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




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