Then and Now - Page 15 - PY Online Forums

RandyW · #**281** 01-31-2005, 04:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> So if Pontiac hadn't been shut down by corporate and forced to run the standard GM motor where would it have been today it was killing chevys back then and it most likely still would have been killing them but Pontica put the dear flag ship line in 2nd place so corporate killed PMD that's history and a fact the guys that worked there are still alive ask them I have a taped interview of J D and he said that on tape <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Pontiac fan, my brother's '68 400 H.O. Firebird with 3.90 gears once ran a 12.95 on 7" slicks! So a lot of what you say is true, but the fact remains, Pontiac and all the other V8's were eventually shut down in favor of corporate engines. That's just how it is, the old days aren't coming back.

rabon008 · #**282** 01-31-2005, 06:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Don Salisbury:
my answer to that is you can't compare the two ones an Pontiac and ones not, ones a 41 year old butt kicker with a history and track reccord and ones not , ones computer designed and ones not . But for a Pontiac motor that started the muscel car revolution and was in the dark ages as you guys make it seem . put one of your new ones up against ol man taylors 64 is it stock ? no but it shows what could have been done to the old iron and I'm sure he didn't even start to put the investment in that GM put in the SB ls8 that was originally designed for Corvette ah I think that wears a chevy badge. I guess if you relly want to compair apples for apples your going to have to take some of the old motors that have been built to todays standards and then line them up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh...so you don't want to talk stock when it doesn't suit your argument.

BTW: Since the word "iron" was mentioned, care to take any guesses who built the first all aluminum (block, heads and pistons) OHV V8? I'll give you a hint: It was a 389. The engine wasn't a success because it didn't have sleeves. Nevertheless, whenever GM uses an aluminum block, heads and pistons in one engine they aren't getting that idea from chevrolet.

Finally, if you think you can't "build" a LS1/2 to surpass the levels of those "built" vintage Pontiac engines, you're mistaken.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**283** 01-31-2005, 09:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you knwo whats in my 69 ? no you dont. you act like the new gtslow is the fastest car on earth or something. trust me if my car wasnt in the body shop now and the streets were clear id run anything (it dosent have to be RWD or in the same price range). and im getting ready to take the motor out and get some rods/pistons so i can use the #16's on and run pump gas. come spring time i hope to be ready. you think the LS1 would hold up better ? maybe because a rev limiter/fuel shut off. isnt technology great? id hope it could hold up better. put a rev limiter and a fuel cut off on a old pontiac motor and it would be a whole new ballgame. i dont need to rev it up to 6k. remember my motor is a pontiac not a chevy so i dont have to play pin the needle on the tach to make power. with my current setup ill be out of power at 6-6,500 but imnot gonna take it up that high. i have no idea how old the internals are in this motor.

Tripower455 · #**284** 01-31-2005, 11:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>what is this middle school again ? "if you dont answer my question then thats admitting that...." Cmon man grow up a little. and where did i say that the LS1 isnt a good engine? other then the fact that my roomie blew a LS1 in a 98 SS (this was a new car at the time and he wasnt my roomie then) and got a 97 T/A with a LT1 (2 years old at the time) and we tried to blow it and we couldnt. id take a origional pontiac engine over either a LT1/LS1. you want to talk about weaseling out of a question you never answered my question about what part of a new GTslow is pontiac (that means is only found in a pontiac) besides the badges? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me get this straight. Because your friend blew up an LS1, and then didn't, even after trying, blow up an LT-1, you've deduced that a vintage Pontiac is better than an LS-1?

Is deductive reasoning a difficult subject for you? (rhetorical question, btw....)

Why don't you and your friend try to blow up a stock, vintage pontiac. I bet you are able to do it pretty easily. Why do you think it's so hard to find a GTO with it's original engine? I love the traditional Pontiac for what it is, but wouldn't even consider running one up to 6K on a regular basis in stock form.

I'd wager a substantial bet that the LS-1 will stand up to equal treatment a lot better than a stock '69 400 Pontiac of similar power.

BTW, have you run any new GTO's with your '69 GTslOw yet? I think you'll be dissapointed and want to sell it after doing so..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you knwo whats in my 69 ? no you dont. you act like the new gtslow is the fastest car on earth or something. trust me if my car wasnt in the body shop now and the streets were clear id run anything (it dosent have to be RWD or in the same price range). and im getting ready to take the motor out and get some rods/pistons so i can use the #16's on and run pump gas. come spring time i hope to be ready. you think the LS1 would hold up better ? maybe because a rev limiter/fuel shut off. isnt technology great? id hope it could hold up better. put a rev limiter and a fuel cut off on a old pontiac motor and it would be a whole new ballgame. i dont need to rev it up to 6k. remember my motor is a pontiac not a chevy so i dont have to play pin the needle on the tach to make power. with my current setup ill be out of power at 6-6,500 but imnot gonna take it up that high. i have no idea how old the internals are in this motor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the new one is the fasstest thing on earth, but I'll bet it will beat your 6X headed 428! Maybe when you get the 16's it'll be a bit more of a race....

If you want to talk about engines that don't run yet, let's discuss my 455 which will kill your 428

Oh, and my dad can beat up yours

........

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**285** 02-01-2005, 12:19 AM

you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother

...

Tripower455 · #**286** 02-01-2005, 12:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother

... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '66 will be very streetable (MPG in the teens) and fast. It's all in how you build it.

Overdrive is your friend if you want both.

Goat luver · #**287** 02-01-2005, 07:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
Feel free to post a pic of that 70 GTO you claim to own.

Yeah, c'mon Mr "Whatza Moron" let's see your beloved Goat.

I asked for pics in a posting a few weeks ago......... still waiting!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that's fair. I don't remember you asking for a pic, but I'll dust off the cover and give you a pic here shortly. It's nothing spectacular, bone stock and needs a good waxing and some armourall. Let me hit it with a buffer and some elbow grease and it'll be ready for a pic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still waiting.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**288** 02-01-2005, 11:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tripower455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
you have the advangate because you can build your 455 for a strip only car. i gotta compromise when i make my 69 a street/strip car. no big converter,cam,rear gears, hell the cam i bought for it is a 226/230 duration with .510 lift (all the springs can handle) which is smaller then a RAIV cam. i was advised that would be about as big as i would want to go for a street motor with a stock converter (for now). ill take the 425-450 hp and be happy with it. or since im getting rods/pistons for it im considering putting a stroker kit in it. but then again it has to be streetable. it doesnt get the best mileage as it is and i imagine with the stroker kit id be lucky to get 5mpg. or i could keep my 6X4 heads and get them worked over and find a 6 or 8-71 to put on top. but would that be streetable? or build it up for some spray. but i dont want to do that either. you see the point im trying to make? it has to be streetable. in the back of jim hands book theres a 428 combo very simmilar to mine thats runing high 11's. theres a few cars around (4 or 5 that ive seen at least) where i live that could hang with that if not beat it. there will always be something faster. for a street/strip car id settle for low 12's/high 11's. if i ever consider getting rid of my 69 i think how lucky i am (at 22) to have this car. not a lot of people my age or older have owned one. by the way what does my 69 have to do with the 04? ill tell my big brother

... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My '66 will be very streetable (MPG in the teens) and fast. It's all in how you build it.

Overdrive is your friend if you want both. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well good luck to ya. ill be happy if i can stuff 3.73 gears in it and manage to get 10+ mpg. i guess it would help if i stay out of the gas more. but it sounds too good when the secondaries open up.

Tripower455 · #**289** 02-02-2005, 09:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>well good luck to ya. ill be happy if i can stuff 3.73 gears in it and manage to get 10+ mpg. i guess it would help if i stay out of the gas more. but it sounds too good when the secondaries open up.

Greatest Of All Time <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Overdrive and a hydraulic roller will make it much less of a compromise, even with 4:11 gears.

My '66 is a weekend driver. It will see the strip once in a while, but driveability has always been a high priority. Between the .64 OD with the tremec and a hydraulic roller (hmmmmm sounds a lot like a new GTO) make low 12s (maybe even high 11's) become a lot more civilized. Mine even has AC and it won't see the high side of 2500 RPM at 80 mph with 4:11s.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**290** 02-08-2005, 12:53 AM

i heared that a hydraulic roller on the street is a bad idea ? i guess it dont matter if the springs i got can only handle .511 lift.

Mr_GTO · #**291** 02-08-2005, 03:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i heared that a hydraulic roller on the street is a bad idea ? i guess it dont matter if the springs i got can only handle .511 lift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, better tell that to all the OEM's because if they are running a cam in block, it's a roller cam.

You don't know a lot about engines do you?

Goat luver · #**292** 02-08-2005, 06:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr_GTO:
Feel free to post a pic of that 70 GTO you claim to own.

Yeah, c'mon Mr "Whatza Moron" let's see your beloved Goat.

I asked for pics in a posting a few weeks ago......... still waiting!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, that's fair. I don't remember you asking for a pic, but I'll dust off the cover and give you a pic here shortly. It's nothing spectacular, bone stock and needs a good waxing and some armourall. Let me hit it with a buffer and some elbow grease and it'll be ready for a pic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still waiting.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Mr "Whatza 70 GTO" We are all still waiting......

Tripower455 · #**293** 02-09-2005, 12:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i heared that a hydraulic roller on the street is a bad idea ? i guess it dont matter if the springs i got can only handle .511 lift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope not! The '66 will be my third car with an HR in it!

The only downside to a HR on a street car is the cost.

CosmopurpleGTO · #**294** 02-09-2005, 04:40 PM

AMEN!! Good - sensible anology!!

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**295** 02-10-2005, 01:11 AM

i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that.

Mr_GTO · #**296** 02-10-2005, 03:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple. Bad info in, bad info out. Read all the magazines you can. Lots of good information in those.

Tripower455 · #**297** 02-10-2005, 09:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
i was told that if you put a roller cam in a street car its not as durable as a hyd cam. but when i look at a summit catalog with cams for a LT1/LS1 i scratch my head and wonder why i was told that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only real durability issue was the distributor gear, since roller cams are made of billet steel, and would wear out the stock distributor gear. I got a Crane HR, which has an iron dist gear.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**298** 02-10-2005, 11:25 PM

is that why people use bronze dist gears ?

Tripower455 · #**299** 02-11-2005, 08:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
is that why people use bronze dist gears ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup.

The bronze gears were "sacrificial", and I've heard that some folks got as little as 5000 miles on them before replacing, which is impractical for a daily driver. I went with a Crane HR with cast iron gear. I understand that BOP Eng. has a composite gear that will not wear with a billet crank.

Overall, the HR is not a bad way to get a bit more power/wider powerband without sacrificing driveability. They're not cheap though, by the time you buy the cam and lifters.

The guy that's putting my '66 together has the same cam in a '68 400 (with RA IV heads) and he is running in the mid 11's with it, and it idles like a taxi. Tons of low end torque as well.

With that cam, the Tremec and a 4:11 Moser 12 bolt, my GTO will be a no (or little) compromise driver and strip car. I'll bet it even gets decent (in the teens) mileage when not romped on.

RAIVJUDGE · #**300** 02-11-2005, 10:28 AM

I have just read a lot of this thread and I must be bored to have done so. I am a die hard Pontiac guy (GTO's, Judges, Trans Ams) Mr-GTO and others stop trying to convince yourselves that the new GTO has a Pontiac engine. It may be a corporate block but it is more Chevy then any other brand. No Cadillac V-8 comments either please. And secondly the new GTO handles great, runs great but it looks like a Grand Am on Steriods simple as that. You have to look twice at one to realize it is a GTO on the street. Someone at GM dropped the ball on this car and it is a shame. Ford is going to kick some butt with their new designs. I was going to buy a new 05 GTO and decided not to . I am buying a new GT Mustang and with the 4,000 I am saving I am investing in a Paxton underhood blower kit (3,500) which will give me 450HP. See ya later GTO. I predict the new GTO will cease production in 06 and they will bring back the Camaro to compete with the Stang.

Here's the quote from GM's website regarding the LS-1
"GM's family of LS1 overhead-valve V-8 engines can trace its roots to the fabled Chevrolet small-block V-8, yet the LS1 is much more than an offshoot from the small-block family tree. The LS1 continues the small-block's longstanding virtues of compact size, simplicity, reliability and high specific output."