Then and Now - PY Online Forums

projectfolly · #1 12-14-2004, 06:24 AM

I apologize in advance for rambling. For what its worth, I just thought I would weigh in on the '04 GTO issue. First, I own a '69 Judge, and a yellow '04. To me, its pretty cool to open the garage door and see them sitting next to each other. I grew up in a GM family, my Father, Uncles & Grandfather all worked for GM, most of them at Pontiac Motors when there was such a thing as divisional autonomy within GM. So to say I like Pontiacs is a understatement. Anyway, after reading all the comments about the styling of the new GTO in particular the comment that they look like a Cavalier or a lot of other cars on the road, I tended to agree. It then occured to me that when I was a kid, and the "classic" GTOs we know an love were driven as real every day cars, I remember that the GTO looked an awful lot like another entry level GM car called the Tempest. In fact I had to look fairly close at the Pontiac A bodies to discern if it was a GTO or a Tempest or a LeMans, especially the earlier cars. In fact the overall shape of the car was very similar to other makes on the road at the time, so they blended in to the automotive landscape of the time quite well. It seems that most people rember only the GTO and not the rest of the A body line that suported it. The A body 4 door wagons, Tempest, LeMans carried the GTO as the GTO did not stand on its own. When I drive my Judge in todays traffic it stands out from all the other cars as should any car that is 35 years old. When I drive my new GTO, yes it belnds in but I do get lots of positive comments and interestingly enough from kids. This may have something to do with the fact that its yellow and stands out in terms of color alone.
I applaud Lutz for spearheading the Manaro to the states as the GTO. It is a great car, and it is a great car to live with on a daily basis and I'm happy that Pontiac actually has a V8 rear wheel drive 4 passenger coupe. Lutz understood that with the demise of the F car, Pontiac really had nothing left in the lineup that could maintian Pontiac's performance image. While I would like to see the GTO styling as more retro to the original in the same sense that the new Mustang is, without the GTO, Pontiac would be another boring front wheel drive division of GM with only body cladding and red lit intstrument clusters to set their cars apart from the other divisions.

projectfolly · #2 12-14-2004, 06:24 AM

I apologize in advance for rambling. For what its worth, I just thought I would weigh in on the '04 GTO issue. First, I own a '69 Judge, and a yellow '04. To me, its pretty cool to open the garage door and see them sitting next to each other. I grew up in a GM family, my Father, Uncles & Grandfather all worked for GM, most of them at Pontiac Motors when there was such a thing as divisional autonomy within GM. So to say I like Pontiacs is a understatement. Anyway, after reading all the comments about the styling of the new GTO in particular the comment that they look like a Cavalier or a lot of other cars on the road, I tended to agree. It then occured to me that when I was a kid, and the "classic" GTOs we know an love were driven as real every day cars, I remember that the GTO looked an awful lot like another entry level GM car called the Tempest. In fact I had to look fairly close at the Pontiac A bodies to discern if it was a GTO or a Tempest or a LeMans, especially the earlier cars. In fact the overall shape of the car was very similar to other makes on the road at the time, so they blended in to the automotive landscape of the time quite well. It seems that most people rember only the GTO and not the rest of the A body line that suported it. The A body 4 door wagons, Tempest, LeMans carried the GTO as the GTO did not stand on its own. When I drive my Judge in todays traffic it stands out from all the other cars as should any car that is 35 years old. When I drive my new GTO, yes it belnds in but I do get lots of positive comments and interestingly enough from kids. This may have something to do with the fact that its yellow and stands out in terms of color alone.
I applaud Lutz for spearheading the Manaro to the states as the GTO. It is a great car, and it is a great car to live with on a daily basis and I'm happy that Pontiac actually has a V8 rear wheel drive 4 passenger coupe. Lutz understood that with the demise of the F car, Pontiac really had nothing left in the lineup that could maintian Pontiac's performance image. While I would like to see the GTO styling as more retro to the original in the same sense that the new Mustang is, without the GTO, Pontiac would be another boring front wheel drive division of GM with only body cladding and red lit intstrument clusters to set their cars apart from the other divisions.

Mr_GTO · #3 12-14-2004, 08:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by projectfolly:
I apologize in advance for rambling. For what its worth, I just thought I would weigh in on the '04 GTO issue. First, I own a '69 Judge, and a yellow '04. To me, its pretty cool to open the garage door and see them sitting next to each other. I grew up in a GM family, my Father, Uncles & Grandfather all worked for GM, most of them at Pontiac Motors when there was such a thing as divisional autonomy within GM. So to say I like Pontiacs is a understatement. Anyway, after reading all the comments about the styling of the new GTO in particular the comment that they look like a Cavalier or a lot of other cars on the road, I tended to agree. It then occured to me that when I was a kid, and the "classic" GTOs we know an love were driven as real every day cars, I remember that the GTO looked an awful lot like another entry level GM car called the Tempest. In fact I had to look fairly close at the Pontiac A bodies to discern if it was a GTO or a Tempest or a LeMans, especially the earlier cars. In fact the overall shape of the car was very similar to other makes on the road at the time, so they blended in to the automotive landscape of the time quite well. It seems that most people rember only the GTO and not the rest of the A body line that suported it. The A body 4 door wagons, Tempest, LeMans carried the GTO as the GTO did not stand on its own. When I drive my Judge in todays traffic it stands out from all the other cars as should any car that is 35 years old. When I drive my new GTO, yes it belnds in but I do get lots of positive comments and interestingly enough from kids. This may have something to do with the fact that its yellow and stands out in terms of color alone.
I applaud Lutz for spearheading the Manaro to the states as the GTO. It is a great car, and it is a great car to live with on a daily basis and I'm happy that Pontiac actually has a V8 rear wheel drive 4 passenger coupe. Lutz understood that with the demise of the F car, Pontiac really had nothing left in the lineup that could maintian Pontiac's performance image. While I would like to see the GTO styling as more retro to the original in the same sense that the new Mustang is, without the GTO, Pontiac would be another boring front wheel drive division of GM with only body cladding and red lit intstrument clusters to set their cars apart from the other divisions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh oh, common sense has been interjected into the forum of bashers.

Great assesment. I agree 1000% percent. It is too bad others don't get it.

RandyW · #4 12-14-2004, 10:37 AM

WEll I think the '04-'05 makes a lot of sense. I plan to drive a few and decide if I want one.

pont3 · #5 12-14-2004, 11:43 AM

I agree totally with you, Projectfolly, but I hope you have your shield in place. I wrote a similar post recently and I was met with plenty of opposition, called stupid for buying one yada, yada, yada. Funny, though, I don't feel stupid at all. How people can call someone stupid for buying what one wants with his own hard earned money is beyond me. They same to forget that the '73 GTO looked exactly like the '73 Grand AM. I think we all were intially put off by the stying of the New GTO but some of us looked beyond that and considered the total package. As I stated before, this is only the beginning of a come back of the GTO. While the first attempt may be considered a failure by some it is an attempt I am very glad they made. Subsequent attempts will be met with skepticism as well but Pontiac will eventually give us what we want.

68GTOConv · #6 12-14-2004, 12:25 PM

Isn't there some kind of filter that could be put in place to disallow "pro new GTO" messages ... or must we just continue to rely on the bashing that has become commonplace.

This is almost 2005 - Surely there is some technology we could deploy to stop these objective well-stated comments at the source :-)

Mike M

projectfolly · #7 12-14-2004, 02:27 PM

Thanks Pont3. I know I'll suffer the slings and arrows of those who do not like the new GTO and thats OK, controversy is good. I look at it this way, the GTO can only get better. There is evidence of this by the improvements to the 2005 model year cars. Hopefully the styling will get better eventually, but even then I dont think the car will make appeal to everyone. For example, say a few years down the road the styling goes retro.Which year GTO would be the best one to draw from ? If it looks like a '68 with the smooth voluptious coke bottle styling, the people that prefered the crisp timeless lines of the '64s and 65's wont like it, just like like back in the day when some said the new '68s had a "pregnant" look. As for me, I figured the days when one could walk into a Pontiac dealership and buy a new GTO were gone forever, so I'll try to enjoy it while it lasts and spend as much time as I can releasing smoke from the tires of my new GTO just like those that had the opportunity to do back in the day !

Trace · #8 12-14-2004, 11:27 PM

Nice post, projectfolly - we all can argue ad infinitum about styling. I for one love the styling of my '04 - sleek & smooth! I like the older cars too, but just sitting in one reminds me the appeal is based on nostalgia - I wouldn't want my modern mechanicals sheathed in such bodywork, anymore than I'd want my '03 Suzuki SV1k to look like a 60's or 70's model Suzuki.

RandyW · #9 12-15-2004, 05:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trace:
Nice post, projectfolly - we all can argue ad infinitum about styling. I for one love the styling of my '04 - sleek & smooth! I like the older cars too, but just sitting in one reminds me the appeal is based on nostalgia - I wouldn't want my modern mechanicals sheathed in such bodywork, anymore than I'd want my '03 Suzuki SV1k to look like a 60's or 70's model Suzuki. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having modern drivetrains in vintage metal works, too! Check the 'click current pics' on my page; look here

qgoat · #10 12-15-2004, 09:04 PM

Great post, you made a lot of good points.. all cars evolve in styling and wont appeal to everyone...For example, a 1999 camaro looks nothing like a 1969 camaro. So if you closed-minded bashers would go test drive the new goat i am sure it will look a lot better to you afterwards. I am the proud owner of a 2004 phantom black 6m goat and have never been as satisfied with a car as I am with this one. I have owned 3 mustangs one of which was a 1998 cobra that i traded in for the goat...NO REGRETS. That should tell you how great this car is.
I saw a picture of a 70's model monaro ands it looked exactly like a 70's model gto/nova/ventura. so if those model cars had continued they would probably look like the current monaro/gto.

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #11 12-15-2004, 11:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by projectfolly:
I apologize in advance for rambling. For what its worth, I just thought I would weigh in on the '04 GTO issue. First, I own a '69 Judge, and a yellow '04. To me, its pretty cool to open the garage door and see them sitting next to each other. I grew up in a GM family, my Father, Uncles & Grandfather all worked for GM, most of them at Pontiac Motors when there was such a thing as divisional autonomy within GM. So to say I like Pontiacs is a understatement. Anyway, after reading all the comments about the styling of the new GTO in particular the comment that they look like a Cavalier or a lot of other cars on the road, I tended to agree. It then occured to me that when I was a kid, and the "classic" GTOs we know an love were driven as real every day cars, I remember that the GTO looked an awful lot like another entry level GM car called the Tempest. In fact I had to look fairly close at the Pontiac A bodies to discern if it was a GTO or a Tempest or a LeMans, especially the earlier cars. In fact the overall shape of the car was very similar to other makes on the road at the time, so they blended in to the automotive landscape of the time quite well. It seems that most people rember only the GTO and not the rest of the A body line that suported it. The A body 4 door wagons, Tempest, LeMans carried the GTO as the GTO did not stand on its own. When I drive my Judge in todays traffic it stands out from all the other cars as should any car that is 35 years old. When I drive my new GTO, yes it belnds in but I do get lots of positive comments and interestingly enough from kids. This may have something to do with the fact that its yellow and stands out in terms of color alone.
I applaud Lutz for spearheading the Manaro to the states as the GTO. It is a great car, and it is a great car to live with on a daily basis and I'm happy that Pontiac actually has a V8 rear wheel drive 4 passenger coupe. Lutz understood that with the demise of the F car, Pontiac really had nothing left in the lineup that could maintian Pontiac's performance image. While I would like to see the GTO styling as more retro to the original in the same sense that the new Mustang is, without the GTO, Pontiac would be another boring front wheel drive division of GM with only body cladding and red lit intstrument clusters to set their cars apart from the other divisions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats your opinion and youre intitled to it. what upsets me is that the GTO was the first muscle car. it started all of this. how can you slap a chevy motor in an australlian car and call it a pontiac? ive said before im only 22 so i didnt have the expierence of you guys growing up with real muscle cars (big motors). i choose to drive a pontiac because they are diffrent then chevy (real pontiacs). the styling/performance is sub par for a GTO. true cars looked similar 30+ years ago. but when you bring a cars name back after 30+ years youd think it would look somewhat like the origional cars. it only makes sense. why would you call something a GTO and make it look like a grand am or a cavalier?

rabon008 · #12 12-15-2004, 11:36 PM

Why would you call something a GTO when it's a Tempest with a BIGA$$ engine? Answer: Because it is a GTO. Same deal with the '04.

LS1 a "Chevy motor"? I think GM Powertrain might disagree with you on that one.

Trace · #13 12-16-2004, 03:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trace:
Nice post, projectfolly - we all can argue ad infinitum about styling. I for one love the styling of my '04 - sleek & smooth! I like the older cars too, but just sitting in one reminds me the appeal is based on nostalgia - I wouldn't want my modern mechanicals sheathed in such bodywork, anymore than I'd want my '03 Suzuki SV1k to look like a 60's or 70's model Suzuki. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having modern drivetrains in vintage metal works, too! Check the 'click current pics' on my page; http://mywebpages.comcast.net/toppop52/ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Randy, you're quite right! Love your Impala! Maybe I'll have to restate my viewpoint: I wouldn't want <my> modern mechanicals in older bodywork, but I'll take <yours> off your hands for you!!

Anytime you want to rid yourself of that I'd be glad to provide it a home!

RandyW · #14 12-16-2004, 05:56 AM

Thanks Trace, in fact I'm going to sell that Impala, I've had it for 5 years, bought it from the orig. owner(86 yrs.old), with 57k on the clock. Converted the drvetrain 2 years ago. I love it but I want to put an LS1 in my '80 Grand Am!

projectfolly · #15 12-16-2004, 08:34 PM

Nice Impala !
I like the drivetrain set up too. I'd like to see how the Grand Am turns out as well.

projectfolly · #16 12-16-2004, 08:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by qgoat:
Great post, you made a lot of good points.. all cars evolve in styling and wont appeal to everyone...For example, a 1999 camaro looks nothing like a 1969 camaro. So if you closed-minded bashers would go test drive the new goat i am sure it will look a lot better to you afterwards. I am the proud owner of a 2004 phantom black 6m goat and have never been as satisfied with a car as I am with this one. I have owned 3 mustangs one of which was a 1998 cobra that i traded in for the goat...NO REGRETS. That should tell you how great this car is.
I saw a picture of a 70's model monaro ands it looked exactly like a 70's model gto/nova/ventura. so if those model cars had continued they would probably look like the current monaro/gto. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! I agree on your point that if the GTO was kept around all this time it probably would look very similar to what the Monaro GTO looks like today. I must admit it took me a while to warm up to the new GTO. Once I test drove one, I was convinced and took the plunge. The more I drive it, the more I like it.
Speaking of black GTOs,a co-worker of mine totaled his new black one not long ago with only 2000 miles on the clock. Turns out after an evening of ahh, celebrating, he became lost in down town Detroit, (not a good thing) and ended up on a unfamilar side street. While ripping through the gears, he over shot a turn, and launched the car over a curb/embankment at about 90 mph, became airborne, cleared a 6 foot fence, and plunged down into a railroad ravine where he smacked a concrete wall. He woke up in the hospital he next day. Turns out other than getting his bell rang, he had a cut lip and chipped tooth. His passenger walked away. The GTO was a write off, but the point is, it did its job in the crash,and he lived to tell about it. After seeing the car, I have much more respect for its design and build quality.

Trace · #17 12-16-2004, 10:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
Thanks Trace, in fact I'm going to sell that Impala, I've had it for 5 years, bought it from the orig. owner(86 yrs.old), with 57k on the clock. Converted the drvetrain 2 years ago. I love it but I want to put an LS1 in my '80 Grand Am! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grand Am?! Wait a minute, Randy... you are converting it to rwd, right? Have to be - and that would be very cool!

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #18 12-17-2004, 01:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
Why would you call something a GTO when it's a Tempest with a BIGA$$ engine? Answer: Because it is a GTO. Same deal with the '04.

LS1 a "Chevy motor"? I think GM Powertrain might disagree with you on that one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

remember when pontiac was forced to use the chevy 350's statring in the 80's ? those engines evolved into the LT1 then the LS1 now the LS2. what other GM camaker was using these 350's ? buick? caddy? oldsmobile? as i remember it was a chevy engine and pontiac was forced into using the motor. pontiac didnt choose to use it. wasnt their motor. so thats why it is a chevy motor. this dosent sound of a hard concept to understand. might be tough for some of us.

Mr_GTO · #19 12-17-2004, 03:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

remember when pontiac was forced to use the chevy 350's statring in the 80's ? those engines evolved into the LT1 then the LS1 now the LS2. what other GM camaker was using these 350's ? buick? caddy? oldsmobile? as i remember it was a chevy engine and pontiac was forced into using the motor. pontiac didnt choose to use it. wasnt their motor. so thats why it is a chevy motor. this dosent sound of a hard concept to understand. might be tough for some of us. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tell me, what parts of the LS1 is shared with the LT1 or SBC? Please show me a link from www.GM.com where it says the LS1 is a "Chevrolet" motor. PLEASE. I'll be waiting.

projectfolly · #20 12-17-2004, 06:00 AM

This is the same thing I posted on another thread, but it applies to this topic.
With regard to the new GTO being powered by the LS1/LS2, I can unerstand the complaints that the engine is a evolution of the Chevy Small Block (even though it shares no parts)and should not be powering a Pontiac - sort of.
The reality is that the traditional Pontiac V8 ceased production over 20 years ago.
Where the Pontiac Motors foundary and engine plant once stood that produced the engines is nothing but an empty tract of land. The days of each GM division having its very own powertrain, engineering and manufacturing are gone. With all the competitors in the automotive market now, GM has lost so much market share that they can no longer have independent divisions that compete against themselves like in the good old days when they had over 50 percent of the market. Out of all the engines GM produces, the best one by far for the GTO is the LS1/LS2 as many here can attest to. GM powertrain is just that, GM powertrain, not Chevrolet, not Cadillac, Buick or Pontiac - just powertrain.I dont like it anymore that the next guy but,we need to get over it and move on.