[Cliff R]

The key to success is to use a good converter with efficient characteristics.

Folks also tend to associate stall speeds with coupling efficiency, thinking that a 3200 stall speed converter will slip excessively at rpm's lower than that for "normal" driving.

This is true if you buy "low end" off the shelf stuff. The Continental 10" units that we use are very, very efficient for normal operation. They act and drive much like stock converters. There is very little slippage at light throttle and light load conditions.

Even on the brakes the 10" unit in my car will start spinning the tires at apprx 1800rpm's. Yet is flashes to near 3500rpms on full throttle starts at the track. We have used and provided scores of non-LU converters for applications where the cruising rpm's in OD was quite low, and have had ZERO complaints or issues related to transmission failure from overheating.

I've come to dislike using a TCC for retrofitting, unless the needed time and funds are spent to make sure that it operates much like factory set-ups.

This requires the solenoid be grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch, and the voltage to the solenoid routed thru a vacuum switch hooked up to ported vacuum. The insures that the TCC can only apply in high gear at part throttle. Any coasting, heavy/full throttle, etc, will lower the vacuum enough to disengage the TCC. This insures that the clutch doesn't get overloaded, and the engine doesn't "lug" at heavy throttle openings/low vehicle speeds in OD.

I've seen a lot of units set up with direct wiring, toggle switches, sometimes using a 4th gear pressure switch, sometimes routed thru a brake pedal switch, etc. The LAST thing one should have to do is look for a switch to operate the TCC, especially in todays driving situations.

The TCC needs to be set-up to lock and unlock under a variety of situations, just like factory units. If not, it can/will lug the engines, or overwork the clutch.

As mentioned earlier, I ran my 67 Impala SS both ways, and came to quickly HATE the TCC. After going to a non-LU converter, we enjoyed over 35,000 miles of trouble free operation from the transmission and converter, and didn't use any cooler other than the one in the factory radiator.

We've set up plenty of these transmissions over the years, and in almost all cases use a TCC if the vehicle came that way from the factory. For all retrofitting, we go non-LU, and help the customer choose the correct rear gearing, tire diamter, etc, in addition to providing a correctly prepared transmission with a good torque converter......Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

smittyseng- Have a temp gauge on it, and I'll keep an eye on what it is running at now. That will give me a baseline when/if I go non-lockup.

Cliff R- Due to time constraints, as I mentioned earlier, I left the LU in there. So for now, I'd like to try the vacuum switch setup your talking about, and wonder if you have a source for those? Typical auto parts store stuff? Would imagine this would be wired with a relay in conjunction with the brake switch? Some info on this would be helpful, avoid having to do the research from ground up....

I still haven't talked to my GN buddies, about the LU / non-LU topic, would like to hear their' input. Obviously, they have cars that were designed from day 1 to use a LU, but would still like to hear their' side. I know a number of them, the guys who spend a lot of time at the track, have all gone to TH400s, so not sure what their' memory is going to be like on the 200s

[TTS]

I'm installing a painless wiring kit this week, I'll report back on it's operation. I have several things to do on this car so hopefully it's driving late in the week.

It's a tad pricey @ $150, but it should save some time not seeking out and buying individual components.

It includes a vacuum switch (haven't checked it's # value), brake switch, internal wiring, 4th switch, solenoid and all specific connectors.

[Cliff R]

I've never bought a Normally Open vacuum swith separately from any of the kits, so have no source of supply for one.

Maybe a Google search will help?.....Cliff

[bdrac]

at 70 mph ,275/60-15 nitto drag radials i'm turning2300 rpm on level ground. on highway trips in warm weather trans temp runs 140 to 160. hot lapping at the drag strip temp rises to 200.

[HWYSTR455]

Looked at the Painless kit, and wonder why they include new solenoids? Are they different than what's in there now? Reason I ask is that the TCI kit is half the price, and doesn't include them. The TCI kit has a combo vacuum/Brake switch, the Painless has two separate switches. Wonder which would be better?

Cliff R- Which kits do you usually use/recommend?

[TTS]

It's just a new replacement TCC solenoid and harness. It's actually a Fitzall brand solenoid with a full harness rather than 3" pigtails w/ screw connectors.

I wasn't aware TCI used a vacuum switch, good info.

[HWYSTR455]

The first pic is the TCI kit, the second the Painless. The TCI kit has a combo vacuum/brake switch, the Painless they're separate. Anyone have any opinions on the TCI combo switch? I know the Painless is more expensive, but the switches being separate seems to me they may be of better quality and last longer?

[Cliff R]

Haven't installed the Painless kit, but I like the looks of the vacuum switch much better. We had a couple of the TCI switches act up, and had to replace them. They seem to not have much of a range of adjustment.....Cliff

[smittyseng]

I like everyones input on this subject,I'm glad to hear you have found tq convertors that work well running a non-lock up set up. I will look at the continetal 3200 stall convertors for future performance packages. I have used TCS convertors-"The Convertor Shop" in lake havasu with some success,they custom build very high quality pieces,I have also used Coan,Dacco and a few others. Setting a 200r4 up to work well with a "stand alone"lock up kit is difficult,the early 700's were a breeze because they had internal control that you could use a stiffer lock up control spring in combination with any cheap kit like the tci. I have used the tci kit and also used the factory 82-84 chevy truck vacuum switches with 200r4's and it is very crude and there isn't much adjustability. The problem with 200r4's and 87 and newer 700 r4's is the lock up was computer controlled and there isn't much in the trans that helps the lock up timing,they basically had a switch for 4th gear and sometimes 3rd that grounded the computer letting in know it was in that particular gear,as soon as it shifted to that gear. When you control the lockup with these switches it pretty much goes instantly into lock up as soon as it shifts and a vacuum switch will only delay it momentarily if your into the throttle. Something that came out recently that I used that is actually very cheap and offers a nice adjustment range is the superior vacuum switch but you will need to come up with wiring and a 4th gear pressure switch (not that hard to find though). here is a link to the superior switch for anyone interested
http://www.superior-transmission.com...lvers/k052.htm.
They also have a few other nifty products that combined with the switch can be made to work well,a lock up "delay box" to keep a vehicle from slamming into lock-up then un-locking repeatedly which causes some of the complaints we are discussing
http://www.superior-transmission.com...nics/PR290.htm.
They also offer a std lock up pkg to retrofit 200r4's,I think all 3 kits cost less then a typical kit from summit or jegs
http://www.superior-transmission.com..._high_gear.htm
Any local transtar or dacco transmission parts branch should be able to get these for you,I hope this may help somebody out.
Cliff,you are definately right also,just installing a manual switch is a disaster,the first time someone forgets to turn off lock up they will damage the lock-up clutch under a hard throttle run,Smitty

[Cliff R]

We've also seen a lot of shops simply direct wire the TCC by grounding it on a normally "open" 4th gear pressure switch. Then you get a shift to 4th and immediately the TCC engages.

The problem with this set-up is that it will not unlock when coasting and any heavy/full throttle driving.

The best set-up I've used in a vacuum switch hooked to a ported source, then to the solenoid, then grounded on a 4th gear pressure switch. One can also route the voltage thru a toggle switch if the operator wants manual control at any point.

With all that said, I'm still not very fond of using a TCC for a well set-up retrofit into an older vehicle. If a good converter is used, the vehicle simply shifts 3 times, and still has some torque multiplication for heavy throttle situations without having to shift back to third gear.

I ran my Impala SS with both set-ups, and I could barely detect any rpm difference cruising on the highway above apprx 50 mph. The tach would move maybe 50-100 rpm or so when climbing a steep grade in OD when additional throttle was applied to maintain speed. I couldn't measure any differences in fuel economy either. I did all this WAY back in the early 1990's. These transmissions weren't all that popular at the time. I bought the first torque converter from Daaco, and blew it to BITS shortly after installing it. I'm pretty sure we bought the custom non-LU unit from Precision Performance. It was a very well built converter, with decent flash stall and very, very well coupled for "normal" driving.

The combination of 3.31 gearing, stout 327 engine, good converter, and the 4L60's 3.06 first gear gave the old Impala a whole new outlook on life. That car was amazingly quick from a stoplight.

A big Pontiac with a 400 or 455 would be even better, and one wouldn't need steep rear gears, 3.23's or even down to 3.08's would be fine......Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, 4L60 would be nice, though for now I have the 200! And a LU!

smittyseng- Thanks for the links, I will certainly look into that, and gives me an option over the 2 I posted. I like the delay box thing, which from some of my reading seems to be a point of concern (slamming in & out).

Both instructions for the TCI & Painless kits state that if 'slamming' is experienced, to use a GM vacuum delay to a full-time vacuum source (as apposed to the ported), and that part number is GM 14020691. What the heck does that thing look like? Or what's the 'auto parts' application & name? Maybe in combo with all the other devices, I'll get the best possible scenario with a LU?

Cliff R- No chance I'll wire it to 4th as you mentioned, I've experienced the 'poor' drivability as stated. I currently use one of those B&M adjustable lockup controllers, which, with a vacuum switch maybe, would be ok, but the darn thing hasn't worked right from day one. I'm guess it is similar to the delay box from Superior, but just a guess. The B&M unit has a transducer that attaches to the speedo cable, and the box has an adjustment knob for MPH. Anyway, in testing the box, to make sure it WAS the box, I had a switch to lock up directly, so I know exactly what you mean.

[HWYSTR455]

smittyseng - You wouldn't happen to have an online source for those Superior parts would you? The DACCO place over here closed down, closest one is 1.5 hours away...

[Overkillphil]

The B&M speed sensor unit is the hands down best unit we have ever used for TCC installations. We have one in the yellow 72 Formula (Avatar pic) for many trouble free years now. The simple control unit mounts under the dash and the driver can select the speed at which the torque convertor locks up.

We leave it at the max setting all the time in case "an opportunity" comes up alongside us. But for cruising on the highway, set the speed (usually @ 50 mph for us) and forget it. Any speed below that setting will automatically unlock the TCC and we wired the whole thing through a later model brake pedal switch.

We originally tried a vacuum switch in the late 80's but found them to be too tempermental. Then went the route with the 4th gear pressure switch. Problem with that was the TCC was always locked when the trans is in OD no matter what.

The B&M Speed Sensor lockup kit is an easy install too if you must have a lockup converter. However I agree with Cliff that a high quality non lockup converter is ultmately the way to go. And our next unit will be just that.

[HWYSTR455]

Overkillphil- I'll buy that, worked pretty good for me, when it worked! The speed sensor crapped out within the first 100 miles, had it replaced, and I have to send the control unit back for repair, but, unfortunately, I can't find the receipt! Here's a scenario though that it wouldn't work well without a vacuum switch: Over 50 rolling into the throttle without a downshift. Or am I missing something?

Anyway, after listening to all, I thought about it, and I decided to go with a combination of all the above, the B&M controller, the adjustable vacuum switch, the brake switch (of course), the electronic delay, and a GM vacuum delay unit I listed the part number for. I found the Superior parts on eGay, at the OregonPerformanceTransmission store, and the GM vacuum switch at RockAuto.

I'll set the MPH on the B&M unit to like 50, add about a 3 - 5 second delay (for starters) on the electronic, and start with the vacuum switch around 5 inches of vacuum, which I'll connect to manifold vacuum, with the vacuum delay between. I may start out first without the electronic delay, see how it works.

I figure the vacuum delay and the electronic delay (if used) will prevent the 'cycling', the vacuum switch will unlock on heavier throttle, and since it's a 4th gear pressure switch setup, the B&M will keep it from locking under 50 mph. Sound like it makes sense? Opinions?

Now, if I could do a throttle position sensor or something, and have it unlock on coasting, that would be optimum. Maybe reverse a full throttle switch?

[Overkillphil]

Sounds like you are taking the idea to the next level. You'll have to report back on your findings. Sounds interesting. I always thought those vacuum switches I used would have worked fine had they been adjustable like a Crane distributer advance unit. Maybe they exist now but not when I was playing with them 20 years ago.

Funny you had a problem with that unit. A good friend of mine had the same problem with his after we put a 200-4R in his 81 Bird. His lasted a little while though before he had a problem. He also had a problem with the speedo cable hookup coming apart. But then he put over 350k miles on his Bird too.

I have observed that scenerio of lockup/downshifting but deal with it by not using the lockup feature unless I am on a long steady highway. If I find myself needing to change speeds a bit, I just leave it set to the max setting so it doesn't cycle on/off or otherwise become a pita with the downshifting. Frankly, I don't like to force a downshift with it locked as it tends to be too violent and scares me. The few times it happened I found myself looking in the rear view mirror for tranny parts bouncing down the road!

[Cliff R]

Adding a speed switch to the vaccum switch grounded on a normally open 4th gear pressure switch would be the best deal out there, UMHO.

Doing so would NOT allow the TCC to apply until 4th gear, and above a set MPH.

I would unlock when coasting, unlock when you came out of OD, and unlock at heavy/full throttle, just like the factory set-ups do.

I would also route the voltage thru a toggle switch, in case any of the other stuff started giving troubles, then you could still drive it home without any big issues to make repairs.....Cliff

[HWYSTR455]

Well, the vacuum switch has an adjustment range of 1-6 inches, and can be wired to open or close when it reaches the threshold. So, if it were to go open when it reaches 6 inches, such as under heavy throttle, that would be desired, though in a coasting situation, wouldn't it be a high vacuum reading? Meaning I wouldn't have both, only one or the other, which is why I was thinking a throttle position or switch for coasting. Or am I overlooking something?

[Overkillphil]

I played around with the TPS idea a while back, but there was some problem using that. Can't remember if it was the TPS relaying the open signal through the computer or adding a relay or something. Probably solved without alot of difficulty but I didn't want to spend any more time on it at the time.

I do notice how our Buick GN's unlock when the throttle is closed. However, I believe even those are also speed referenced, meaning they don't open once a certain speed is reached causing the TCC to remain locked even when one lifts off the throttle. But not 100% on that. FWIW.

[Malky]

If the vacuum switch is connected to ported vaccum on the carb, not manifold vacuum, the vacuum will be drop to zero when the throttle plates close on coasting and unlock the converter.