[marks73ta]

If someone made one .250 thick with ears for mounts that would be great. The early 55-60 pattern fits inside of the late pattern and could be used to make an adapter to late bolt patterns. I did this with an Indian Adventures rear motor plate but it is only .125 thick and requires another 1/8 inch spacer to bring it out to proper late bellhousing face dimensions. This .250 plate can then be used as an adaptor. Better yet if someone would add the early bellehousing bolt and dowel pin holes too. The end user would just have to figure out how to attach a starter then. Mark L

[Chipped Tooth]

I can do it in any thickness ya need
Even 1" LOL

But if you guys need something special just draw it up and I can get it done for ya.

We are starting to get busy but I'm shure we can hammer it out

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Remind me never to line up or drive next to uneasyrider on the street.

I did not understand the function of the plate either many years ago.

As you see more bad events/explosions with the stuff, you get a lot more safety minded for you and your passengers IF you are going to hammer on the car.

I blew up 5 rear axles in my life and they did not fail due to granny shifting.

Tom Vaught

"Remind me never to line up or drive next to uneasyrider on the street."

Oh stick it Tom. If I don't know and you didn't then just tell me and everyone else what you learned. Safety is the key, right...?

"I did not understand the function of the plate either many years ago.

As you see more bad events/explosions with the stuff, you get a lot more safety minded for you and your passengers IF you are going to hammer on the car."

[Tom Vaught]

First off I was just messing with you, get over it.

Many years ago we did not have the internet to pass along advice on what we had learned. Today we do.

So you tell everyone that YOU drive on the street without a plate and give the impression to people that it doesn't matter. "The bell housing is the real key component because it's YOU that matters and if the thing takes a massive dump I doubt the plate will save anything. But, if you want to put it on it won't hurt a thing."

You are not trying to save parts. The "Block Saver" name was dreamed up by someone and has given people the wrong ideas for years. The bell-housing and the plate are supposed to CONTAIN THE EXPLOSION. The plate is a structural part of the design. The Bell-housing, without the plate, is like assuming that the horses will not get out of a 3 sided corral.

I realize that it is a PIA to install the thing with the extra fasteners and some people leave the plate off just because of that deal but as you posted Safety First is the key thing. It is not a matter of Want, it should be a statement of "You really need to install that part of the package."

Tom Vaught

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Be very careful about assuming that the print in Pete's Book is accurate on the starter dimension/location holes. Several people have found errors with that drawing.

Most have had to slot the hole(s) to get the Starter Pinion Gear to actually engage the flywheel in the right spot, (between the teeth). Also I believe that the bell-housing bolts on the 64-up blocks are 3/8" and the early blocks are different (maybe 7/16" if I remember right).

Tom Vaught

55-60 for sure used 7/16" bolts not sure 61-64. The ring gear is a different diameter on the 64-earlier blocks (at least with bell mounted starter). The adapter drawing in the book positions the starter relative to that ring gear. I dont have that spec handy. Modern ring gear is 13.98" the early one is 14??? (I think 14-5/8").

I think I have the dimension from crank center to starter shaft center(radius) for use with modern ring gear written on one of my drawings. I'll check on it later.

BTW ...dowel holes... dont enlarge them they center the bell. If Bell is off center you use offset dowels to correct the difference. Early blocks thru 60 the dowel measures .498" nominal not 1/2". The newer blocks the dowel hole is .6216/.6226 NOT 5/8"(.625")

15/32"(.46875") holes for transmission bolts will accomodate 3/8" or 7/16" bolts. That is the hole spec on the adapter drawing. Most modern blocks use 3/8 bolts.

I'll follow up with more data.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I had the same thought but did not want to "pile on" when the guys were offering to do a couple of people a favor with the STP file and the offering to make a few plates.

That being said, I think that a Rear Engine Plate/ Bell-housing Cover Plate would be an excellent idea for the racer side of the Forums. I too would buy one but we would have to have a good idea of where the ears would need to go on the plate.

Tom Vaught

Sorry to hijack...I would buy a one piece block plate/mid plate as well. I was going to fab it since I have a plasma cutter but would rather buy to save time.

[Nicks67GTO]

Let me make a suggestion. When you install that lakewood scattersheild.....make sure you get grade 8 allen head bolts to bolt the bellhousing to the block. It makes the install so much easier.

[uneasyrider]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

First off I was just messing with you, get over it.

Many years ago we did not have the internet to pass along advice on what we had learned. Today we do.

So you tell everyone that YOU drive on the street without a plate and give the impression to people that it doesn't matter. "The bell housing is the real key component because it's YOU that matters and if the thing takes a massive dump I doubt the plate will save anything. But, if you want to put it on it won't hurt a thing."

You are not trying to save parts. The "Block Saver" name was dreamed up by someone and has given people the wrong ideas for years. The bell-housing and the plate are supposed to CONTAIN THE EXPLOSION. The plate is a structural part of the design. The Bell-housing, without the plate, is like assuming that the horses will not get out of a 3 sided corral.

I realize that it is a PIA to install the thing with the extra fasteners and some people leave the plate off just because of that deal but as you posted Safety First is the key thing. It is not a matter of Want, it should be a statement of "You really need to install that part of the package."

Tom Vaught

That's the problem with the net and not talking to someone face to face. It's not always easy to type something and make it sound right.

To me it appeared to be an unnecessary piece since it wasn't recommended in the ad when I bought the bell housing and it didn't come with it so how else would I know. Sounds like Lakewood could make some money if they would just inform people in there add it was out there and pertinent to their well being. I might buy one now. If it was only to protect the block that doesn't concern me that much. I bought the thing 7 years ago now so I don't even remember what outlet I bought it off of but I remember typing the search in for a bell housing and it brought up just the bell housing so I bought it.

[goatman65]

I thought the block plate was required by NHRA if using a scattershield.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

55-60 for sure used 7/16" bolts not sure 61-64. The ring gear is a different diameter on the 64-earlier blocks (at least with bell mounted starter). The adapter drawing in the book positions the starter relative to that ring gear. I dont have that spec handy. Modern ring gear is 13.98" the early one is 14??? (I think 14-5/8").

I think I have the dimension from crank center to starter shaft center(radius) for use with modern ring gear written on one of my drawings. I'll check on it later.

BTW ...dowel holes... dont enlarge them they center the bell. If Bell is off center you use offset dowels to correct the difference. Early blocks thru 60 the dowel measures .498" nominal not 1/2". The newer blocks the dowel hole is .6216/.6226 NOT 5/8"(.625")

15/32"(.46875") holes for transmission bolts will accomodate 3/8" or 7/16" bolts. That is the hole spec on the adapter drawing. Most modern blocks use 3/8 bolts.

I'll follow up with more data.

I did write down the dimension for locating the starter centerline when using a bell mount starter and modern 13.98" ring gear.... From crank centerline to starter center the radius is @ 7.3725". The vertical distance(not radius) to the starter centerline from the dowel horizontal centerline(modern bell) is still 4.565"/4.575"

On the plate itself make the starter pilot hole 3-3/8" to 3.5". Make your pilot plate 3.25" for a tight fit around the starter pilot. Dont drill the bolt holes yet(in either piece).

With plate bolted to block,flywheel/flexplate installed, and solenoid removed from starter...clamp the starter to the plate snug but loose enough to allow hammer tap to move it. actuate pinion into flywheel and check pinion to ring gear mesh. Should be .020"-.030" between outer edge of ring gear tooth and "valley" between pinion teeth. (average paper clip is right around.025" if you need a tool...but mic it 1st).

Once you have that set, tack weld the starter pilot plate to block plate. Recheck gap before final welding.
Then install the solenoid and position starter as you want it and mark the bolt holes.

Not shown in the adapter drawing... Dowel horizontal center to pan rail(crank horizontal center. I checked a few virgin blocks and the dowel center to pan rail measured from 2.328" to 2.330".

The T400 drawing may mislead you on the vertical centerlines off the lower outboard holes and the dowel vertical centerlines.
Crank centerline to dowel centerline is 7.690"
Crank centerline to lower hole centerline is 7.800"
Lower hole centerline to dowel centerline is 1.880"
Middle bolts center to crank centerline is 6.300"
Middle bolts from dowel horizontal centerline to bolt center is 2.500"
Upper bolts centers from crank centerline is 3.540"
Upper bolt centers from dowel horizontal centerline is 6.26"

The starter pilot plate is 7/16" on the 61-64 block adapter.

The 55-60 block the starter pilot plate is thinner because the bell face is recessed more (relative to the crank flange) than 61 up blocks. I used 5/16" plate but you could try 3/8" plate if your starter over engages.(or use a 1/16 shim with the 5/16 plate)
Dowel holes... 0.498" or .6221" ...drill smaller and ream to size... they need to be a very snug fit.

OK... here are the 55-60 pattern dimensions. These can be overlaid on the t400 to 61-64 adapter dimensions to fit a modern trans and 61-64 starter and modern flywheel to to early pattern blocks.

Observe comments above on starter mounting and pilot thickness.

First off Pan rail to dowel centerline was 2.806 on my block (another block with machined rail was 2.774). (good reason not to weld starter pilot till all is fit to block)
Note the early dowels are higher than 61 up blocks and smaller at .498". Early blocks use 7/16" bolts.
Quarter inch plate puts modern bell in same plane as modern block with no crank/flywheel spacer needed. It will require welding nuts on plate(or riv-nuts if aluminum plate) where modern trans bolts will go... except upper two which are very close early to late. (hole enlargement in bell to accomodate 7/16 bolts.)
Also suggest Flat head counter sunk allen head bolts(7/16) to mount plate to early block for clearance reasons.

The dowel vertical center to crank vertical centerline is 6.861"
The lower bolts center to dowel center is 2.32"
The lower bolt center to crank centerline is 6.98"
The middle bolt hole centers are 2.329" from dowel horizontal centerline.
Middle bolt centers are 7.242" from crank vertical centerline.
Upper bolt centers are 5.779" from dowel horizontal centerline.
Upper bolt centers are 3.5525" from crank vertical centerline

BTW IMI has a mini starter for 61-64. A 55-60 starter can work if you change the bolt pattern to straight across. RobbMc has a mini for Buick nail head that has infinite clocking and pilot is same 3.25" the bolt pattern looks like 61-64 Pontiac. RobbMc also has a mini with 3.25 pilot and straight across pattern for Eldorado and Toronado and could be fit as well.

Thanks to Jack Gifford and Taff2 for their dimension info below.

[ITSBACK]

Ive never used either before so Im wondering how its installed. Is the plate bolted to the bellhousing and then bolted to the block. It would be nice to see pics or drawings of the actual install. I hear its a real pain with the plate and someone said grade 8 allen bolts make it easier. Not sure about any of this, my first GTO was an automatic and 25 yrs ago.

[poncho447]

The block plate is held in place with the bell housing bolts so it just hangs there until the scatter shield is installed.

I use a couple of home made 3" long 3/8" alignment dowels.
Screw the dowels in the back of the block on opposing sides.
Then slide the block plate in place, it will hang there on the dowels. Then install the flywheel, clutch assembly and scatter shield.

DO use allen head bolts, it will make life a LOT easier.

[ITSBACK]

I thought that may be the case but was not 100%. Ive installed small motors like that with threaded rod where 4 hands were needed, thank you for that info.

[ITSBACK]

I guess if laying under the car that would really push the temper to tge limit. I will be doing this on a bare chassis so it should be a little less frustrating, I hope. It will be nice to not have to throw tools across the garage.

[Vince GTO]

I checked with the quality guy and he has not gotten to this yet. It is a government project so it has taken the back seat to work related issues. Please let me know if you guys are still interested? He believes he can have the hole positions by the end of next week. Waiting for this information will make the drawing more accurate.

Vince

[ITSBACK]

I am still interested. Thanks for the update Vince, I appreciate the help.

[ITSBACK]

Im going to make a couple calls tomorrow and see if I can find one, I hate to make you waste your time if your busy. I would be happy if I could just borrow one to make a copy. I finally spoke to a local guy who has a plate and housing for sale but he said he wont be able to get to digging it out for at least a month, just one of those things I guess. I thought I saw somewhere that sells the plate and housing, I may just call them and see if I can buy and return it. Couldnt I just make a tracing from the housing itself?

[Vince GTO]

Originally Posted by ITSBACK

Im going to make a couple calls tomorrow and see if I can find one, I hate to make you waste your time if your busy. I would be happy if I could just borrow one to make a copy. I finally spoke to a local guy who has a plate and housing for sale but he said he wont be able to get to digging it out for at least a month, just one of those things I guess. I thought I saw somewhere that sells the plate and housing, I may just call them and see if I can buy and return it. Couldnt I just make a tracing from the housing itself?

You could trace the housing but it would not give you the position of the crank. Send me your address and I will trace this one and mail it out to you.

Vince

[ITSBACK]

Thanks Vince, I spoke to Jim Taylor today and he said he should have one laying around and will look this weekend. He said they just moved the business and stuff is everywhere. When I talk to him Monday I will see how many he has if any. I will keep you posted.
Thanks again.

[ITSBACK]

Spoke with Jim Taylor today, need to call back Friday, hes been busy with move. I will follow up.