[64speed]

I just pray to god I don’t have any ticks. With the lifter bore mod I feel like I will be ok!

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Perhaps you could explain your expert logic in coming to this conclusion? Did you even attempt to isolate the "tick" and determine what caused it? Did you inspect and measure the cam lobes to determine it was a bad cam?

I can tell you what cam is not a good choice for your application … the one you have that requires octane booster to keep it from pinging.

I inspected the lifters as requested by Lunati. They didn't show any signs of being messed up. Then I sent them their cam back.

I'm the one who actually did find the tick. I know it was the cam and lifters because I fixed it by switching the cam.

One thing though;

I have yet to hear of anyone who used these heads Sam, Firebob, and I have with the 703 that didn't have a tick.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Nitrous. ROTFL.

It's fun to use at the track. It's for people who love unlimited HP. Push the button and it feels like you added another engine.

It's relevant to some of the conversations we have had about setting your timing by ear. Nitrous will tell you if you didn't set your timing spot on because you don't get away with any detonation. It's game over. I always set my timing by ear on my car I drove to the track and raced. Didn't have any damage to the 428 I built. No detonation. Proof that my ear works. It's not just your ear though. You have to drive it and have a feel for what your moves are giving you. You zero in on what works by listening to how the car starts. How it shuts down. How it accelerates. Throttle response. A timing light is actually easier but less accurate as to getting it just right. A timing light can give you a reference as to what you found was perfect. Without your ear and your experience a timing light is just a shot in the dark. It's a starting point for someone who hasn't got the ear thing down yet.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

Yeah, astute guys spend $3000 on Edelbrock performance heads and install a camshaft grind intended for a school bus ...

You really are only guessing on paper. You think you can tell everyone everything by just typing without knowing anything in the real world.
I happen to have, in the real world, not on paper or in my mind, the combo you are typing about. So sit back and listen because I know from real experience. The combo works really well. Experience trumps guesses all day long 24/7. Write down what I'm telling you because it's real. Put it in your notes and learn from real experience. Then you will have something to type about that's not your 'guessing'.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by West Coast GTO

I just had Cliff redo a 800 cfm Quadrajet for my 455 and, when looking at the cam that was installed he said: Why do you have a cam( 2157) designed for a 350 in a 455?
My answer: well, the previous owner paid a " mechanic" to install the Edelbrock system( heads, intake, carb and cam) and the cam was " recommended" by Edelbrock.
Now that I have the carb back, I can change the cam at the same time.

That's how I built my 428 and it ran great. Nice running engine on the street that I could drive to the track and race with nitrous power added. Just a one stage kit. How does your 455 run? My 428 was lower compression than this 400 I have the cam in. Not sure how it would act in a larger engine with high compression. I can't speak from experience on that.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If you leave the RAIV cam out of the equation there are still a few Pontiac production cams (Tri-power and earlier Ram Air) that will produce more HP than that Edelbrock cam with a smooth idle.

Stan

Thanks Stan. Would any of those cams make it so I could run lower octane fuel with no detonation? Of course I would like to be able to buy cheaper gas and not add octane boost. It's not on the top of my list of accomplishments but it would be a small improvement if possible.

[Steve C.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott70
"Especially if you can get the same performance and running characteristics with a well chosen cam and run on 87 octane instead. Get the cylinder pressure down with a better cam and it wouldnt be so sensitive to octane.

TAQuest....."What cam would that be?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss
"If you leave the RAIV cam out of the equation there are still a few Pontiac production cams (Tri-power and earlier Ram Air) that will produce more HP than that Edelbrock cam with a smooth idle."

TAQuest..... "Would any of those cams make it so I could run lower octane fuel with no detonation?"




Go explore ! Go back and read my post #109



.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott70
"Especially if you can get the same performance and running characteristics with a well chosen cam and run on 87 octane instead. Get the cylinder pressure down with a better cam and it wouldnt be so sensitive to octane.

TAQuest....."What cam would that be?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss
"If you leave the RAIV cam out of the equation there are still a few Pontiac production cams (Tri-power and earlier Ram Air) that will produce more HP than that Edelbrock cam with a smooth idle."

TAQuest..... "Would any of those cams make it so I could run lower octane fuel with no detonation?"




Go explore ! Go back and read my post #109



.

Just post some cams and say what you think the advantage of them would be.
Like; Smooth idle. No extreme tuning. Better for getting around using higher octane fuels and why. List the cam. Make it easy. This isn't a game show.

[Cliff R]

High compression teamed up with a small stock size cam is ALWAYS going to win all tests if you are looking at vacuum production at idle, throttle response right off idle, bringing big power (torque) in early, and getting a big heavy vehicle moving well when you stick it hard. That's just the laws of physics with these things. Power, or torque is what gets these big cars moving and having a bunch of it right off idle is the best deal going.

Now with all that said tiny cams in high compression engines raise cylinder pressure really high and the owner/tuner very quickly runs into issues trying to effectively manage pump gas with those set-ups.

So you have two choices, pull timing out everyplace till the engine is happy, or increase octane until it's happy everyplace, or a little of both.

The problem with increasing octane is that it very quickly becomes difficult, if some times near impossible to keep the octane at a safe level for the engine. We simply don't always drive the car till the tank is plum empty then get to fill up at the same station with the same 93 octane fuel and dump in the exact same amount of octane booster. There are other factors somewhat beyond our control like engine temps, outside temps, air quality (DA), and the true octane rating of the piss-water gas we purchased.

For these reasons I don't consider these sort of engines as a success for a street car or daily driven vehicle.

There are other and better ways to "skin that cat", if you don't think so take a look at the clip below. That engine has a true compression ratio of 11.3 to 1 and effectively manages currently available pump fuel with zero issues anyplace. I've even ran 87 octane in it and not the first hint of detonation, but I typically use 92-93 octane just to give me a "warm and fuzzy". I've also added race gas to it at the track and it just slows the car down about .03-.04 seconds.

You truly can have your cake and eat it too with these things. I respect what others are doing, and all that really matters here is that you are happy with a high compression street engine that really needs race gas in it. 99 percent of my customers would not be, so we make sure that the engines we've built for them are happy on currently available pump fuel.

As far as making recommendations to others, they should read the first part of this response, and be smart enough to know what happens when you team up an "RV" cam with a high compression 400 CID engine with good flowing heads on it.......FWIW.......Cliff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zVdoLR-VzM

[Steve C.]

"Just post some cams and say what you think the advantage of them would be"

I'm NOT a guy sitting in a work cubicle answering the phone ! And besides some of those calculators ask for the bore, stroke, where the inlet valve closes in degrees, etc.... and drum roll... the static compression ratio ! Do you know yours ?


Not a recommendation, but for conversation..... go run the specs for the popular Crower 60243 cam used in quite a few 400's. Then compare it to yours with your engine combination.


.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

High compression teamed up with a small stock size cam is ALWAYS going to win all tests if you are looking at vacuum production at idle, throttle response right off idle, bringing big power (torque) in early, and getting a big heavy vehicle moving well when you stick it hard. That's just the laws of physics with these things. Power, or torque is what gets these big cars moving and having a bunch of it right off idle is the best deal going.

Now with all that said tiny cams in high compression engines raise cylinder pressure really high and the owner/tuner very quickly runs into issues trying to effectively manage pump gas with those set-ups.

So you have two choices, pull timing out everyplace till the engine is happy, or increase octane until it's happy everyplace, or a little of both.

The problem with increasing octane is that it very quickly becomes difficult, if some times near impossible to keep the octane at a safe level for the engine. We simply don't always drive the car till the tank is plum empty then get to fill up at the same station with the same 93 octane fuel and dump in the exact same amount of octane booster. There are other factors somewhat beyond our control like engine temps, outside temps, air quality (DA), and the true octane rating of the piss-water gas we purchased.

For these reasons I don't consider these sort of engines as a success for a street car or daily driven vehicle.

There are other and better ways to "skin that cat", if you don't think so take a look at the clip below. That engine has a true compression ratio of 11.3 to 1 and effectively manages currently available pump fuel with zero issues anyplace. I've even ran 87 octane in it and not the first hint of detonation, but I typically use 92-93 octane just to give me a "warm and fuzzy". I've also added race gas to it at the track and it just slows the car down about .03-.04 seconds.

You truly can have your cake and eat it too with these things. I respect what others are doing, and all that really matters here is that you are happy with a high compression street engine that really needs race gas in it. 99 percent of my customers would not be, so we make sure that the engines we've built for them are happy on currently available pump fuel.

As far as making recommendations to others, they should read the first part of this response, and be smart enough to know what happens when you team up an "RV" cam with a high compression 400 CID engine with good flowing heads on it.......FWIW.......Cliff


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zVdoLR-VzM

That is so well put.

Nice run on the video link.

What cam was that?

When I get my choice of all the parts I wouldn't go so high of compression(for this car).

I would have bought the 87 cc heads.

But I bought the car with these heads and I'm not ready to kick them to the curb just yet.

So I have to compromise in this situation.

The best compromise for my situation is octane booster.

Now back to the tick.

I had a few folks from here tell me in PM that there's a problem picking cams for these heads. Some have to change springs. Some have had bad spring retainers. All sorts of nightmare situations. Articles attached to the pm. Steve C kept telling me, and I quote, "All is not well with these heads". "Ask the experts". So I did ask the experts and they said that the 703 should work but didn't have any specific experience with the combo. So I tried the 703 and immediately after break in I knew something was wrong because it ticked. Never ticked before with the 2157.
So I switched it to a cam I knew would work from experience.

Then Sam comes around with the same problem, maybe.

Then Firebob comes around with the same problem, maybe.

Are these ticking sounds something inherent with the combo?

If so it's something a lot of people need to know when they make their choices.
You have to consider compatibility, not just on paper, from real world experience.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"Just post some cams and say what you think the advantage of them would be"

I'm NOT a guy sitting in a work cubicle answering the phone ! And besides some of those calculators ask for the bore, stroke, where the inlet valve closes in degrees, etc.... and drum roll... the static compression ratio ! Do you know yours ?


Not a recommendation, but for conversation..... go run the specs for the popular Crower 60243 cam used in quite a few 400's. Then compare it to yours with your engine combination.


.

As compared with the 2157, how much less compression would I have using the 60243? 400 cid. Stock bore and deck height. 72 cc heads. Fresh compression test; 170 No signs or detonation on the plugs.

[Formulajones]

It's going to depend on where each particular cams ICL is installed, but since you don't degree them no one can even begin to answer that question.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It's going to depend on where each particular cams ICL is installed, but since you don't degree them no one can even begin to answer that question.

I didn't install it retarded or advanced. Used the standard marking. Verified TDC first.

[TAQuest]

I asked for a cam with a smooth idle and Steve comes up with the 60243.

Here's the description;

Crower Ultra Performance Compu-Pro performance Level 4 camshafts are ideal for hot street/drag strip applications. They're designed for heavily modified engines. The cams have a definite lope at idle and exhibit strong midrange and top-end torque and horsepower. These hydraulic flat tappet models are available in many options for lift, advertised duration, and operating rpm range. Order the camshaft designed for fitment and performance on your vehicle/engine application.

Now that's a FAIL.

[Steve C.]

Stated.... Steve C kept telling me, and I quote, "All is not well with these heads".

I don't recall the specific reason why I made that statement. And there has been the mention of recommendations by Edelbrock. But as mentioned before, and not just by me, just because a salesman suggests something does not make it always optimum. As an example, read my post number 6 in this thread:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=830136

Now consider this... a set of Edelbrock heads in conjunction with the 0.420" valve lift on the 2157 cam with their single coil valve springs at 1.800" installed height. In theory at max lift it would be 0.250" away from coil bind ! Not suggesting you have a issue, but it's damn well not optimum.

What would the salesman in the cubicle say ?



.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TAQuest

I didn't install it retarded or advanced. Used the standard marking. Verified TDC first.

Right, which in no way guarantees the cam is installed where the manufacture recommends. With keyways off slightly on any number of parts (crank/cam/cam sprocket/crank sprocket) Dot to dot does not mean the cam is where it should be.

Without checking your cam installed dot to dot, we have no way of knowing how far advanced or retarded it actually might be, we have no ICL reading for a reference point. So installing another cam and then trying to figure out what that will do to the cranking compression, again not knowing where the ICL is, is just a guessing game.

Bunch of us went over this in your other cam thread but you didn't want to degree it.

[Steve C.]

I stated... "Not a recommendation, but for conversation"

I only used that Crower cam as an example for use with the calculators, that's all.

And NEVER use a catalog description of a cam. I've seen Cliff say that as well.

.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Right, which in no way guarantees the cam is installed where the manufacture recommends. With keyways off slightly on any number of parts (crank/cam/cam sprocket/crank sprocket) Dot to dot does not mean the cam is where it should be.

Without checking your cam installed dot to dot, we have no way of knowing how far advanced or retarded it actually might be, we have no ICL reading for a reference point. So installing another cam and then trying to figure out what that will do to the cranking compression, again not knowing where the ICL is, is just a guessing game.

Bunch of us went over this in your other cam thread but you didn't want to degree it.

Why can't you just compare two cams and figure out the difference if both are installed as the manufacturer recs?
It seems to me you are just dragging your feet. Looking for reasons to crawl off the job. Just being negative.

[TAQuest]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

I stated... "Not a recommendation, but for conversation"

I only used that as an example for use with the calculators, that's all.

And NEVER use a catalog description of a cam. I've seen Cliff say that as well.

.

That's a freakin' stage 4 cam Steve. So far from smooth idle.