["Teacher]

I'm sorry about your addiction. Perhaps there is a twelve-step program...( "Hi, I'm SWEETJUDGE and I'm a Judgeaholic..." "Hi, SWEETJUDGE")
As for me, I understand regarding original sheetmetal and all. Our clone is really just a project to keep us busy in the dry spells and bring a little extra scholarship money to the school when it is finished. I used to "worship" cars several years ago (68 AMX, 67 GTX clone,68 Firebird, 69 Torino GT,Tri power67 GTO clone, 400hp AMC Hornet), but life and faith has replaced one "addiction" with different one. I still like the cars, and think 69 GTOs, Judges in particular,were the best ones for style and all, but they are still just machines when it comes right down to it. Used to bracket race a long time ago, before kids and management responsibilities. Sometimes life was easier as a "wrench twister"...but I wouldn't trade my life now for anything.I hope your car is the real thing.

[SWEETJUDGE]

your funny, i know quit cold turkey, but i have 2 other gtos so it wont quite fix me.As i mentioned i have BIG problems.
i really think this is a bad joke, not from you, the guy who is telling me where i got my car from. I upset him when i tried to get his judge, and im praying he's returning the MADNESS i caused him.
I love harleys but i think they are overpriced rattle traps. I would lose parts everytime i ride. (harleys dont belong in the 9000 rpm range)but i brought it there everytime.

[Fake Goat]

Sweet, I have been reading this thread and feeling bad for you. Then I went to the readers rides section and read the text and saw the pictures of your Judge (Judge wanna-be?).

Now listen carefully to what I have to say........... SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!! Damn man, you have a BEAUTIFUL car, and if it is not a Judge, so be it! I have $15K into a damn 74 A-body car and I'm still not done AND it will never be as desirable as your Judge. If I were you, I would be ticked off that the car was misrepresented, but you were not financially screwed in this deal. Had you paid $20K-$30K, then yes, I'd be getting a lawyer. Also, you are getting such second hand information from an unreliable source, why would you put any stock into what you are told by that looser?

Get the PHS documentation directly from PHS, and see what it says. If it is not a real Judge, enjoy the car and don't represent it as anything but a clone. If it is a real Judge, bask in the glory of your find.

Relax and enjoy your car my friend. The other party in this saga is probably royally p1ssed to see that you scored such a "sweet Judge"

[SWEETJUDGE]

ive got myself worried sick overhere.
& all you guys and my friends have been talking me through this.THANK YOU ALL, (all u guys on this forum, u are my friends, & will do anything to return the favors)
i think im over doing this on myself.
im trying to make the PONTIAC day show at E town on april 9TH & im contemplating taking the car apart for piece of mind

[Fake Goat]

BTW, if you need someone to bail you out of this car, I would be more than happy to give you what you have invested. I'll even throw in an extra $100 for putting the interior back together!

[SWEETJUDGE]

honestly i dumpd a ton of dough back into it.
now its 99% factory original

this is my dream car

i really dont want to sell
i have a leed on 3 other judges & a convert judge so will see

THANK YOU ALL

[PonchoV8]

Actually the Judge wasn't the caddie version of a GTO. It was an answer to the Road Runner--a base car built to go fast. It just gets a higher price now because it's a Judge. High optioned Judges are not what the original intent of the car was. I was always a convertible guy, but a Judge came along and I decided to buy it after a little thought--and a couple weeks time. I would've sold the car long ago had the price not gone thru the roof.

btw, what's "readers rides"?

[SWEETJUDGE]

what i meant by my statement was the JUDGE was the best car PONTIAC offered as a gto.

Yes your right the original intention for the car was to go up against low buck muscle like the road runner but it ended up on the high end
of the pontiac spectrum.
i dont know any gto or judge that can keep up with a HEMI roadrunner.(i know i opened a can of worms with this but...)
dONT GET ME WRONG I LOVE & ADORE PONTIAC GTO S & JUDGES but ill take a hemi car any day of the week
anyone with a hemi car ill trade?????

[SWEETJUDGE]

readers rides is on the performance years home page.
it has pix & a little desription of peoples cars from the forum

check it out & put your stuff there
its truely a nice feature to the site

[slowgto]

It sounds like you have good documentation, and the fact the numbers match, kind of makes me think it is a true Judge and the guy is messing with you. I would do the following:

-Get the PHS and go through every option and look for any conflicts or options that look like they were added.

-Check the numbers, casting dates, codes, part numbers on the block, heads, intake, carb, rear again. All correct for RAIII? All cast about 6 weeks before the car build date? Compare the block ID stamp to other cars.

-I would be very critical of the block VIN. Post a picture of it here so we can compare it to our cars.

-Check the VIN on the trans.

-Pull the plastic piece away from the dash VIN and see if you can see any tampering with the way it is mounted. There should be a rivet on each side that looks aged, and untouched. How does the VIN look? Does it have more rust than the area it is mounted too?

-Take the cowl screen off, hold a small mirror in there and look at the back of the Data Tag rivets with a flashlight. The rivets should look untouched, (dirty) on the top and bottom. If the Data Tag has any curved edges, it is an indication it was pried off.

-Post pictures of the VIN and Data Tag if you don't have another car to compare them too.

-Look for any indications the car was once another color. Look under door panels, throughout the trunk, under weather-strip, under the carpet, in the door jambs.

-What did you pay for the car? Did it seem cheap for a Judge in that condition?

I doubt there is any legal recourse. The guy will say he did not know and he acted in good faith. Used cars are pretty much "buyer beware" with the burden on the Buyer.

[SWEETJUDGE]

im gonna check all the things you mentioned before i check the hidden vin i just dont want to take the car apart to get to them.
my story on the car is in the readers rides section under judge on the perf.years home page

the price was truely to good to be true.
the seller did sell this to me as a judge with his copy of phs documentation.
i also stressed to him that im NOT interested if its a clone. Heck i can build 1
So his selling & advertising as a true judge (which i kept all the papers & ads) is my only leverage if i have to go after him.
I truely think what i got is real too many correct parts to be a fake but u never know.
I APPRECIATE EVERYONES INPUT youve all helped

[Vrroom]

Teacher, Teacher....

In an earlier post you said "In practical terms, our "clone" will be as much a "Judge" (which is a Pontiac Lemans with options) as many original Judges.The whole thing seems a tad bit silly to a thinking man. Please don't think I am trying to be deceptive, but really, isn't a Lemans with Judge options just that, regardless of when and where those options were added?"

With logic like that, lets say that after several years of wedded bliss you come to find out that the woman you married was born a male. You find out that she (or he, in this case) had a sex change before you met her and she just neglected to tell you because she thought you might not marry her if you knew.

Would you feel different about her after you found out? I mean, come on, she has all the right parts now ......... right?

But really, isn't a Male with Female parts a woman, regardless of when and where those options were added?

Vrroom

[SWEETJUDGE]

great analogy

["Teacher]

Okay analogy. The difference is on one hand we are talking cars, on another a human being. On one hand we "oewn a machine" on the other we have a relationship. I have no relationship with machinery, but I do with my wife. I understand your analogy, but in the end a car is a car. I would be upset if someone sold it to me as an original if it were a replica, don't get me wrong. But my point is that many of the "originals" are practically replicas because nothing original is left on it. The point is, if I get the few parts that carry the right VIN and then build an entirely different car around it , then is that any more a Judge than the car than if I did the same, but starting with a Lemans VIN tag.
BTW, I just replaced the cowl on our car with one from a luxury model 71 Lemans. Is our car now a luxury Lemans because of the VIN tag? I'm not stupid, just having a little fun.

[cressy]

I am very suspicious of high dollar numbers matching restored cars, mainly because restamping of certain parts by some professional restoration shops is a possibility.
The only real way to know is if you are the original owner or knew the original owner.
When a car is documented by PHS or GM it is only determined by the VIN, on a Canadian built 70 Judge you get the WT1 option code on your trim tag also.
My opinion is if the documentation from PHS or GM says its a judge even if its been rebodied its a judge, its not original but then again nor is a restored one with Taiwan sheet metal or datestamped hose clamps, etc.
Also my GM parts catalog lists frames, dash sheetment, etc that could be bought through parts back then that would probably not be stamped with the correct numbers.
Enjoy it.

[SWEETJUDGE]

DUE TO THE RESPONSES ive was able to reach someone (a judge owner) in my nieghborhood on the forums to stop by and look things over to see if he noticed anything unusual or tampering
with.
He was truley amazed with the car. THANK GOD & THE FORUMS
HE SAID You have the PHS and the build sheet all the numbers match nothing to prove it wasnt a judge.
I CAN NOW RELAX

thank you all for your contributions to this

[slowgto]

Sweetjudge,

That is great everything checked out. Your new name was almost sweetclone.

I think a lot of us go through this scare when we buy a GTO.

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Teacher, Teacher!:
...BTW, I just replaced the cowl on our car with one from a luxury model 71 Lemans. Is our car now a luxury Lemans because of the VIN tag? I'm not stupid, just having a little fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you are now the proud owner of a '71 Le Mans Sport (or whatever the V.I.N. tag says the car is). Once you attached the cowl of the new car to your original body, it assumed the identity of the new V.I.N. I hope that you have the title for that '71 cowl section. If the area around the original '69 V.I.N. tag is still viable, I would recommend that you cut the '69 tag, and some of its surrounding sheet metal, off the old upper dash (don't just swap tags, that is not legal in most states. Tampering with the tag and its rivets is illegal, cutting sheet metal is not.) and replace the '71 tag section.

[Vrroom]

well said GTORIC.

[Ron Landis]

Like I said in earlier posts...where do you draw the line? Rebodied. Reframed? Cut in two? Built with NOS parts? Use common sense, treat others as you'd want to be treated. There would be no problems arise if everyone implimented total disclosure in their dealings. I try to because I know how much a piece of bad or incorrect info can cost you down the road. Buy and sell things for face value, be honest and look for the same in someone else. There are good liars out there, but you can usually bust one if you do your homework. Above all, know the cars!