[gregsgtos2]

PHS-NO HISTORY means that there is NO phs on the car. I had a 65 gto that came back the same way. I know it was a gto because it was a 5N car,but no PHS to prove it. I am guessing that your 66-67 is a 242 car,so you at least have that,but no way to know what options it came with from the factory.

[Keith Seymore]

Tim - can you clarify?

By "no history", do you mean PHS did not have any record of build information (as Greg has suggested)?

Or do you mean they didn't have previous owner and modifications (which we would not expect them to have)?

K

[Tim66]

Actually I would like to know both ans. I know that finding out who owned it and what was done to it, is going to be hard to find out. I guess that I'm just wishful thinking. The car is a 66 lemans, with a 400ci motor,I know that the motor did not come with the car ,oh well thanks for your help guys I appreciate it,Tim.

[67 LeMans 326]

Did you actually expect the PHS would provide who owned the car and what they had done to the car?

In addition, I have never heard of PHS not being able to provide build data etc. I don't beleive that to be true IMO...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 67 LeMans 326

Did you actually expect the PHS would provide who owned the car and what they had done to the car?

In addition, I have never heard of PHS not being able to provide build data etc. I don't beleive that to be true IMO...

There are certain windows of the various builds where PHS does not have build info, either because the microfiche was damaged or is missing. That's why I posed my question the way I did.

K

[Tim66]

I was just saying that I was expecting more info,they did have problems with the microfiche,thankyou Keith,and to anyone that I have offened by asking a question,I am truly "sorry" I asked.Thanks to all for your help,Tim. Thanks Jeff, i'll probably do the dmv thing.

[ctgross]

Tim, what plant was your car built? I recall that possibly during that period the Kansas City plant had a fire that destroyed some records. I may be wrong? but...if you post a list or possibly a photo of your build plate(on firewall) there are many members here that
have a vast ammount of knowledge of such......and are more than willing to help. Good luck.

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by Tim66

I was just saying that I was expecting more info,they did have problems with the microfiche,thankyou Keith,and to anyone that I have offened by asking a question,I am truly "sorry" I asked.Thanks to all for your help,Tim. Thanks Jeff, i'll probably do the dmv thing.

Good luck with the DMV. A few years ago that was a good bet, but with the advent of all the new 'privacy' laws, most states refuse to give out any personal information like that. Or at least that is what I've found.

[Keith Seymore]

I wrote up a little "Pre-history" of PHS, if anyone cares, which I believe is self explanatory. This was first captured in an email to author/illustrator Eric White (gtoric on this site).

I haven't reviewed this Jim Mattison or PHS; Jim - if you happen to see this feel free to make any corrections or clarifications.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[Tim66]

Jeff,thats exactly what happened to me, and thankyou Keith for that bit of information,Tim.