[Bruce Meyer]

It makes you wonder why someone would go through the trouble of milling the block and then do such a terrible job on the restamp.

[x-bird2]

Before you put out any money for a lawyer, i'd still go over the front of the block with a fine tooth comb. i'd also look at the transmission vin to see if it was ground and restamped, as the code tag shows it definitely doesn't go with the car. If the front of the block is "unmolested" (The milling machine used to deck the front left a very distinct large swirl pattern) and it's an SR block with a replacement trans, i would discuss a "discount/refund" with the seller. Have absolute proof as to the difference between what was advertised and purchased in hand. If the transmission looks like an attempt to create a matching vin, then i'd consider either a full refund discussion with the seller followed by a visit to a lawyer if that fails.

[Zirconia]

Both "very original" and "numbers matching rebuilt engine" were used in the same paragraph. By the reasonable man standard, that clearly leads you to believe it has a factory original engine. Or, you could run a poll here, and use us as expert witnesses: "100% of members who responded agreed that this sale was fraudulent." And, if the seller is indeed an expert in these cars, he would have to be held to a higher standard than, say a less informed seller who claimed ignorance.

[eaglesan13]

Many years ago an auto theft investigator I knew showed me how he used acid to raise VIN's that had been ground off. It was a long time ago so I don't remember exactly how he did it, but I know it can possibly be done.

If they truly used an SR block on your car, and just restamped it at the dealership, it might be hard to prove your case, since all you will have are our opinions. However, if they ground numbers off a used block, and you could prove it, you might have a good case.

Have you discussed your findings with the seller yet? If not, I would recommend that first.

[70FormulaRAIII]

Jack is out of town until tomorrow. I'm going to try and call him this afternoon to discuss how to make this right. He has a 70 TA, 70 Formula and a 67 GTO in his garage now so I'd say he knew the block wasn't the original #'s matching block. Hell, it may have taken me a few months but I never laid eyes under the hood of a Pontiac til this one showed up in my driveway and, I figured it out. The trans is not restamped. It's out of a 70 Grand Prix.

Did every SR block get stamped from the factory as such or could it have been a bare block? Is there a way to have it authenticated...Machine shop maybe? What is the fair market value of this car now? Mind you, it is NOT very original. Wrong block, trans, carb, distributor, starter, alternator, even the air cleaner is a SR; it's not an original 70 air cleaner. I'm thinking $9-10K if it's a restamp, $12-13 if it's a legit YZ SR block. But how do I know it's an SR for a YZ block? Even if it has 4 bolt mains they could have been added during the rebuild

When I get back to the house I'll start tearing this thing down. I want to get in there and make sure the VIN on the body is correct as well

[Held for Ransom]

I would say it's NOT factory stamped.

[70RAlll]

Guys... if you look closely at the YY Z stamping, to the right of the Z you can see the remenants of a MUN last digit being an 0. Chris sent me directly pictures and when blown up to a full screen, it is there.
Secondly... the factory used a stamp holder that could hold up to 10 characters,they would interchange the numbers as needed. Being a July 1969 Dated block, this is not a SR block. The stampings,due to being all in a single stamp(you can still buy these stamps, I have one) all of the numbers will be on the same axis plane,not all over the place.
Sorry guys.. the dealers never did,and still do not, care about numbers as much as we all do. Not at all. I recall my alternator on my 2001 truck went out under warranty with in 6 months of purchase( I got the car in October 2000, so we were still in the middle of the 2001 model year), it was replaced. I had written down the number on the alternator, the new one was a complete new number. Asked them what the deal was... they looked at me like I had 4 ears... "numbers"... it is the same model alternator, works ...what is your concern now Mr. Oxley?? I was told.. Felt sort of stupid,considering it was a 2001 Truck.. But still... the same response would have been given back then. Dealerships sent warranty requests in for an engine, if it did recieve a VIN stamp, it was done in the engine shop who approved the warranty replacement. Plus, July 69 is the 1st run of 70 model 400 engines.. Seriously doubt that was a SR block. Also, I may be wrong on this, but I thought the SR stamop was ground down near the block's 9799914 casting number and hand stamped,sort of like the "5" was on RAIV engines. I could be wrong on this one, but still don;t think I am..

Thirdly.. the concentric lines on the timeing cover pad.They are way too close and almost look straight. The ones I have seen have as much as 1-3mm spacing, not right next to each other and are in a large swirling pattern. The entire front face was cut with a single grinding stone, so the lines would be enough apart to include both sides of the timing cover. I bet the opposite side is higher off the face of the block and have different lines. . This was an attempt to make the stampings look original. This idiot knew what he had. There is a reason it did not have the correct alternator, distributor,carb and a Grand Prix TH400. What are the odds the alternator, carb and distributor all were bad also?? Ibet if Chris will list the numbers of the alternator, distributor and carb that come with teh engine...we will find they were assigned originally to a GP..I be tthe engine came from a GP..

I am sure this comment will make some enemies,but who on earth believes the dealers took the time to stamp an engine from a warranty relacement?? No, they sent the request in, when the new one was delivered...they installed the short blaock that GM sent them and that was it. I have said this before, GM wasn't building watches,and still don't. Numbers are important at time of production,and to distinguish varying spec's inside a componant, but the line guys and dealers could care less about the numbers.

THIS IS A POORLY DONE RESTAMP.. The PQ TH400 tags have been floating around for some time. Actually I think Parts place had some made,they come with mounting tabs and all. So the tranny could have been done better, the stampings are still available. The stamp is expensive(>$500) but they are available. The font on the numbers are exact same size, shape etc.. I have never restamped an engine,and don;t plan on it...but I know I could have done a better job than this idiot..

Chris needs to look at the hidden vin number on this car. Somuch is wrong, i susoect it never was a true RAlll Formula car..

[steve v]

Did you request pictures of the engine #'s before you bought it?

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by 70FormulaRAIII

Jack is out of town until tomorrow. I'm going to try and call him this afternoon to discuss how to make this right. He has a 70 TA, 70 Formula and a 67 GTO in his garage now so I'd say he knew the block wasn't the original #'s matching block. Hell, it may have taken me a few months but I never laid eyes under the hood of a Pontiac til this one showed up in my driveway and, I figured it out. The trans is not restamped. It's out of a 70 Grand Prix.

Did every SR block get stamped from the factory as such or could it have been a bare block? Is there a way to have it authenticated...Machine shop maybe? What is the fair market value of this car now? Mind you, it is NOT very original. Wrong block, trans, carb, distributor, starter, alternator, even the air cleaner is a SR; it's not an original 70 air cleaner. I'm thinking $9-10K if it's a restamp, $12-13 if it's a legit YZ SR block. But how do I know it's an SR for a YZ block? Even if it has 4 bolt mains they could have been added during the rebuild

When I get back to the house I'll start tearing this thing down. I want to get in there and make sure the VIN on the body is correct as well

Chris.. I hope this "he is out of town, or unavaiulable" doesn't become an issue for you with this seller. I would also contact Ebay and fine a complaint. 1st, get the hidden vin number to confirm it is not a rebody. All SR blocks have a SR stamped somewhere. I don't know where it is..think it was next to the casting block number...could be wrong..but that car is wrong.. All production engines had a MUN. As I told you in an email, a close up look of teh YY Z shows the faint left over "0", which would have been the original MUN.

The acid trick..Use Muratic acid. Home Depo sells it in their lawn and garden dept(sure Lowes does also) as a concrete ckleaner. Tip.. get a container of whater, mix a bunch os baking soda(remember the yellow box you put in the refrig to keep smells down?) and shape it up. This neutralized the acid. If any gets on your hands,just put your hand in the soda soilution..it will bubble rapidly, but will stop the acid immediately. Actually use this to clean the area after applying the muratic acid using a clean shop towel..

Please post a link to the original Ebay acution.. I want to see it in detail..

[68gtoMN]

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Guys... if you look closely at the YY Z stamping, to the right of the Z you can see the remenants of a MUN last digit being an 0. Chris sent me directly pictures and when blown up to a full screen, it is there.
Secondly... the factory used a stamp holder that could hold up to 10 characters,they would interchange the numbers as needed. Being a July 1969 Dated block, this is not a SR block. The stampings,due to being all in a single stamp(you can still buy these stamps, I have one) all of the numbers will be on the same axis plane,not all over the place.
Sorry guys.. the dealers never did,and still do not, care about numbers as much as we all do. Not at all. I recall my alternator on my 2001 truck went out under warranty with in 6 months of purchase( I got the car in October 2000, so we were still in the middle of the 2001 model year), it was replaced. I had written down the number on the alternator, the new one was a complete new number. Asked them what the deal was... they looked at me like I had 4 ears... "numbers"... it is the same model alternator, works ...what is your concern now Mr. Oxley?? I was told.. Felt sort of stupid,considering it was a 2001 Truck.. But still... the same response would have been given back then. Dealerships sent warranty requests in for an engine, if it did recieve a VIN stamp, it was done in the engine shop who approved the warranty replacement. Plus, July 69 is the 1st run of 70 model 400 engines.. Seriously doubt that was a SR block. Also, I may be wrong on this, but I thought the SR stamop was ground down near the block's 9799914 casting number and hand stamped,sort of like the "5" was on RAIV engines. I could be wrong on this one, but still don;t think I am..

Thirdly.. the concentric lines on the timeing cover pad.They are way too close and almost look straight. The ones I have seen have as much as 1-3mm spacing, not right next to each other and are in a large swirling pattern. The entire front face was cut with a single grinding stone, so the lines would be enough apart to include both sides of the timing cover. I bet the opposite side is higher off the face of the block and have different lines. . This was an attempt to make the stampings look original. This idiot knew what he had. There is a reason it did not have the correct alternator, distributor,carb and a Grand Prix TH400. What are the odds the alternator, carb and distributor all were bad also?? Ibet if Chris will list the numbers of the alternator, distributor and carb that come with teh engine...we will find they were assigned originally to a GP..I be tthe engine came from a GP..

I am sure this comment will make some enemies,but who on earth believes the dealers took the time to stamp an engine from a warranty relacement?? No, they sent the request in, when the new one was delivered...they installed the short blaock that GM sent them and that was it. I have said this before, GM wasn't building watches,and still don't. Numbers are important at time of production,and to distinguish varying spec's inside a componant, but the line guys and dealers could care less about the numbers.

THIS IS A POORLY DONE RESTAMP.. The PQ TH400 tags have been floating around for some time. Actually I think Parts place had some made,they come with mounting tabs and all. So the tranny could have been done better, the stampings are still available. The stamp is expensive(>$500) but they are available. The font on the numbers are exact same size, shape etc.. I have never restamped an engine,and don;t plan on it...but I know I could have done a better job than this idiot..

Chris needs to look at the hidden vin number on this car. Somuch is wrong, i susoect it never was a true RAlll Formula car..

See link in post #10 above... Also, see picture above. That number does not appear to be a ZERO, instead either a 5, 6 or 8. I'd lean toward 8.

[The Boss]

Quick tip, an SR block would not have an EUN.

[70FormulaRAIII]

Here is the link to the ebay listing
http://www.collectorcarpricetracker....0373566237.pdf

[70FormulaRAIII]

Originally Posted by steve v

Did you request pictures of the engine #'s before you bought it?

He told me over the phone and in an email - that I still have - I don't delete the important ones! - that it was the original drivetrain. The only things replaced were the front fenders, lower rear 1/4, et, etc. Besides, the only way to varify anything is with my own eyes, up close and personal. Everything looked and sounded very legit.

Plus I'm active duty Army. I was shot through the knee during a firefight in Baghdad back in 2003 and subsequently had my leg amputated just above the knee. Yes, I'm still active duty. I've jumped out of a plane with my prosthesis and everything else. No big deal. Anyway, I qualified for a one time $11K auto grant from the VA, which I used to buy this car. The VA sent him a check directly for the $11K and I sent the rest after that. I never imagined he could be ripping me off knowing the circumstances. I wonder if that makes this a federal offense?

[The Boss]

WOW! Hopefully he makes good on the deal.

[baron_]

...doesn't look like anything I've seen
I had a similar YZ block 2 years ago. Rather...similar in year/model.

Not at all similar to that looking casting

[70FormulaRAIII]

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

As much as I dislike being the bearer of bad news, here is my take on your VIN stamp: FAKE.

IN the picture below, I did analysis of the entire stamp and then of each individual number in relation to the others. Factors "measured" by colored lines include:

1. Relative alignment to an imaginary line (these VINs were line stamped - all numbers registered to the same axis (represented by YELLOW line - drawn between bottom of N and bottom of 7. Parallel lines drawn at top of both)
2. Relative alignment of each individual number/letter to the north/south axis of the number 7 (represented by GREEN lines - each GREEN line is exactly parallel and consistent with the number 7)
3. Absolute north/south alignment of each number/letter by drawing a line from the center of the lower portion of the number through the center of the upper portion of the number (represented by BLUE line)
4. Relative alignment of each number to the number directly next to it by drawing parallel lines on pairs of numbers/letters that had sections with absolute east/west portions (represented by PINK) lines

In point 1, you can see that several of the numbers between N & 7 drop below the lower parallel line. Were these to have been stamped as one, they would all line up. They do not. These were stamped individually.

In points 2 & 3, you can see that the numbers vary in north/south alignment to one another. The green line represents the absolute north/south alignment of 7 and relative alignment of the other numbers to that reference point (all green lines are exactly parallel). The BLUE line represents the absolute north/south alignment of each individual number. Comparing GREEN TO BLUE on each shows how each number is tilted on a different axis

In point 4, the letter N showed clear tops/bottoms to each point and parallel lines were drawn at top/bottom of letter. To the right of N is 1, which has an absolute east/west reference point along the bottom (or serif) of the number. That line was duplicated and moved to the top of the 1 - exactly parallel to the bottom PINK line. Comparing how the lines between N & 1 intersect, it is clear to see that these were individually stamped.

In addition, looking at the Block Code stamp, I can make out a very faint set of EUN stamps that appear almost invisible as if milled off. The YY Z stamps are also off line meaning that they were individually stamped, not as a pair.

Amazing that you took the time and put this much effort into helping a guy you've never met. Thank You!

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by 70FormulaRAIII

He told me over the phone and in an email - that I still have - I don't delete the important ones! - that it was the original drivetrain. The only things replaced were the front fenders, lower rear 1/4, et, etc. Besides, the only way to varify anything is with my own eyes, up close and personal. Everything looked and sounded very legit.

Plus I'm active duty Army. I was shot through the knee during a firefight in Baghdad back in 2003 and subsequently had my leg amputated just above the knee. Yes, I'm still active duty. I've jumped out of a plane with my prosthesis and everything else. No big deal. Anyway, I qualified for a one time $11K auto grant from the VA, which I used to buy this car. The VA sent him a check directly for the $11K and I sent the rest after that. I never imagined he could be ripping me off knowing the circumstances. I wonder if that makes this a federal offense?

Chris-

I never knew this story of yours. The check you sent me for restoring the carb and distributor...I am refunding 100% of that. I WILL NOT accept your money,. guys like you bring tears to my eyes. I wish I was brave enough to do what you have done, truth be told.. when I was 20 something I was so damn self absorbed...just don't think I would have given of myself as you have. It is guys like you who allow us our freedoms.. If this jacka$$ trys and stick you with this car, I think there will be a small army of pontiac guys after his a$$.. Of all people to rip off a brave american hero.. And yes, that is what you are.. I know... most guys like you don't want to be called heros, just doing your job... but damn'it you are a hero.. Oh how mad I am now that i read your bagdad story... SOB in Florida...

[goatasaurus rex]

70,

the stamping on your block looks much like the stamping on a '73 SR block from my 69 GTO parts car. the stamping is uneven in depth and not perfectly in line. looks like a drunk did it. i would say that part is authentic. YY stamping is not correct and looks very much like a fraud. that being said. a SR block with correct vin stamping and pour date is ok. that it was passed off as the original #'s match engine, is a matter for you and your attorney to take up with the seller. the stampings on my original, #'s match block for my other 69 GTO look like the example supplied here, very crisp and of matching font.

[CaptCrunch]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Chris-

I never knew this story of yours. The check you sent me for restoring the carb and distributor...I am refunding 100% of that. I WILL NOT accept your money,. guys like you bring tears to my eyes. I wish I was brave enough to do what you have done, truth be told.. when I was 20 something I was so damn self absorbed...just don't think I would have given of myself as you have. It is guys like you who allow us our freedoms.. If this jacka$$ trys and stick you with this car, I think there will be a small army of pontiac guys after his a$$.. Of all people to rip off a brave american hero.. And yes, that is what you are.. I know... most guys like you don't want to be called heros, just doing your job... but damn'it you are a hero.. Oh how mad I am now that i read your bagdad story... SOB in Florida...

Right on Bill...........This sucks..........