[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

I shouldn't get involved in the commentary, but being from the area, I have seen some of the parts first hand. The headers fit fine on the mockup chassis/block/heads/valve covers supplied to Joe at Cartel. I do not know if the mockup components came from Ed or Lynn, but I saw the headers fit in a chassis that was a 69 Bird. I personally thought the headers were a work of art. They were tucked tightly against the heads/valve covers and looked good. I don't know the dialogue between parties and what was agreed or expected (and it is not my business), but the headers fit the components that were provided as a jig for fabrication. I work full time as an engineer for a multi-billion dollar company that currently uses Cartel for prototype machining/prototype engine builds. We have run no less than 30 complete prototype engine builds through his shop in the last 2 years, that go straight to an endurance dyno cell and pull rated power for 1000-2000 hours. My experience has been that they have good attention to detail and Joe is one of the best fabricators that I have seen during the 14 years I have been in automotive research and development. I'm just one person with an opinion I guess.

I'm having a hard time with the machine work pictures. Tony has done work for us LONG before anyone in the Pontiac world even knew of BES (late 80's/early 90's). They are a stand up group of folks from my experiences and very knowledgeable. On more than one occassion, we have taken problematic blocks/cranks/heads done by other shops (some Pontiac/some not) down to Tony and they find/resolve the issue. The issues at hand are definitely not typical of their business. Hopefully your concerns are addressed.

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

[pastry_chef]

If I was Ed, I would be having the tear-down performed by a professional and reputable independent third builder.
If this was the case, the identity of the independent pro might be kept private at this time.

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by 67'7F6'Bird

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

Earlier it was stated that the headers were built with a different supplied set of valve covers than the ones he decided to use?

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by Ron H

Earlier it was stated that the headers were built with a different supplied set of valve covers than the ones he decided to use?

Stock Pontiac Height valve covers were never the intended use. I guess, if you want maybe two bolts on each side to hold them on then they would work.

[2manyponchos]

Originally Posted by 67'7F6'Bird

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

Some of the tubes and the bends on them are so close to the flange you cant even get a bolt through the hole unless its put in from the wrong side of the flange. However, you bring up a Good Point of "No Quality Control" with regards to the heads. I would Agree.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

When the headers were finally attached the engine at BES, who was originally going to dyno this boosted "That's another story", you’d think someone would have noticed that the holes don’t line up.

Can the alignment issue be easily fixed? YES. Should I have to fix it? No, but I will.

Did you actually see all 8 header bolts inserted through each of the header flanges?
Did you see the turbos mocked up?
Did you see any valve covers on the mock heads Joey used while building my headers?

In all the pictures sent me, the only pictures with valve covers "stock style" were sent after the headers were bolted up to the engine at BES with most likely 2 end bolts.