[Rob B]

I'm curious of what ever happened with your conversations with BES? They are local to me and I have NEVER heard a negative word about their craftsmanship and builds or anyone getting screwed by them. And the few motors that I've heard of that maybe had issues, the customer(s) were always taken care of. I just can't see some of this hack work done by them. I can see it being done by someone else...

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Don't see how 500+ emails really caused all these mistakes or releases liability for them ?

totally agree!

If a vendor does NOT clearly acknowledge and address customer inquires, said vendor should FULLY EXPECT to receive a second email from the client!
If business is not 'taken care of' in the second email a third email would ensue, and so on...etc

Its very clear here, Ed had every reason to be VERY concerned throughout the build.
13,000 in Labor alone should buy a chit-load of customer service.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Rob B

I'm curious of what ever happened with your conversations with BES? They are local to me and I have NEVER heard a negative word about their craftsmanship and builds or anyone getting screwed by them. And the few motors that I've heard of that maybe had issues, the customer(s) were always taken care of. I just can't see some of this hack work done by them. I can see it being done by someone else...

I’ve sent BES the picture posted here and have not heard anything yet.

[Scott Roberts]

Has BES claimed to have done all of this work? Has that been verified?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

Has BES claimed to have done all of this work? Has that been verified?

Based on the information I have, BES was responsible for all machine work, except for whatever work is done to the heads by Lynn’s guy after the heads are originally made. BES also blueprinted, assembled and dyno tested the engine twice. The headers that don’t fit were done by the IndyCartel.

[BB70]

RAIV Z, I hope you got your ducks in a row because the things you're saying and showing the world isn't adding up in my book. You are dragging thru the mud some of the most reputable shops around. You ought to just end this thread. You will be lucky to get anybody else to do anything else for ya. John

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by BB70

RAIV Z, I hope you got your ducks in a row because the things you're saying and showing the world isn't adding up in my book. You are dragging thru the mud some of the most reputable shops around. You ought to just end this thread. John

You have to be kidding me? You dont think its possible someone like BES can make a mistake? Give me a break, anyone can hire a $10 retard to help in a machine shop.

I had another statment but decided to not ask you, assuming I already knew the answer.

[Tom Vaught]

When I visited the BES shop months ago, Tony had 3 engine builders:

His original "1st Employee" who had been with him from "Day 1".

A Very Experienced Engine Builder (who used to work for Roush Racing on NASCAR Engine stuff.

A lot younger Engine Builder (with maybe some experience), I did not talk to him much vs the other 2 guys. Not saying that the young guy screwed up this deal. There are so many twists and turns in this McCarthy/BES deal it is hard to keep track.

Lynn had the heads poured somewhere, Lynn had the basic machining on the heads done a different place, The Port Development was done as BES, the Engine Building was done by the "Mystery Builder", The Dyno testing was done at BES, the Header stuff was somewhere else, and then of course Lynn, his brother, and his son were involved.

Has all of the makings of a Kwame Kilpatrick court room play.

Even Ed has a part in this deal with his expectations vs what he actually got. I hope he gets this all resolved at some point.

Tom Vaught

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

This engine was shipped directly from BES.

If BES is going to affiliate themselves with other engine builders...they should check the work that has their name on it.

Tom Syron

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by T Syron

If BES is going to affiliate themselves with other engine builders...they should check the work that has their name on it.

Tom Syron

Which other engine builder?

[T Syron]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Which other engine builder?

Let me rephrase that "engine salesman"

Tom Syron

[Ron H]

Tom Vaught said: the Engine Building was done by the "Mystery Builder",

I think it is clear from what Ed said that BES built the engine.

Don't take this the wrong way but I am curious about a few things.

It is days between pics and they are not really in sequence of a tear down.

Why the crank after the bearings?

Why the bearings after the block?

Some of this damage looks like the end of a drill bit held in a hand drill? The bearing and now the crank?

What you have and are dealing with this build really sucks. Confusing, frustrating and just wrong in my book. It is beyond words for me to to think of how you must feel when seeing the heads when you first began tearing it down. Never mind the rest.

[2manyponchos]

I shouldn't get involved in the commentary, but being from the area, I have seen some of the parts first hand. The headers fit fine on the mockup chassis/block/heads/valve covers supplied to Joe at Cartel. I do not know if the mockup components came from Ed or Lynn, but I saw the headers fit in a chassis that was a 69 Bird. I personally thought the headers were a work of art. They were tucked tightly against the heads/valve covers and looked good. I don't know the dialogue between parties and what was agreed or expected (and it is not my business), but the headers fit the components that were provided as a jig for fabrication. I work full time as an engineer for a multi-billion dollar company that currently uses Cartel for prototype machining/prototype engine builds. We have run no less than 30 complete prototype engine builds through his shop in the last 2 years, that go straight to an endurance dyno cell and pull rated power for 1000-2000 hours. My experience has been that they have good attention to detail and Joe is one of the best fabricators that I have seen during the 14 years I have been in automotive research and development. I'm just one person with an opinion I guess.

I'm having a hard time with the machine work pictures. Tony has done work for us LONG before anyone in the Pontiac world even knew of BES (late 80's/early 90's). They are a stand up group of folks from my experiences and very knowledgeable. On more than one occassion, we have taken problematic blocks/cranks/heads done by other shops (some Pontiac/some not) down to Tony and they find/resolve the issue. The issues at hand are definitely not typical of their business. Hopefully your concerns are addressed.

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

I shouldn't get involved in the commentary, but being from the area, I have seen some of the parts first hand. The headers fit fine on the mockup chassis/block/heads/valve covers supplied to Joe at Cartel. I do not know if the mockup components came from Ed or Lynn, but I saw the headers fit in a chassis that was a 69 Bird. I personally thought the headers were a work of art. They were tucked tightly against the heads/valve covers and looked good. I don't know the dialogue between parties and what was agreed or expected (and it is not my business), but the headers fit the components that were provided as a jig for fabrication. I work full time as an engineer for a multi-billion dollar company that currently uses Cartel for prototype machining/prototype engine builds. We have run no less than 30 complete prototype engine builds through his shop in the last 2 years, that go straight to an endurance dyno cell and pull rated power for 1000-2000 hours. My experience has been that they have good attention to detail and Joe is one of the best fabricators that I have seen during the 14 years I have been in automotive research and development. I'm just one person with an opinion I guess.

I'm having a hard time with the machine work pictures. Tony has done work for us LONG before anyone in the Pontiac world even knew of BES (late 80's/early 90's). They are a stand up group of folks from my experiences and very knowledgeable. On more than one occassion, we have taken problematic blocks/cranks/heads done by other shops (some Pontiac/some not) down to Tony and they find/resolve the issue. The issues at hand are definitely not typical of their business. Hopefully your concerns are addressed.

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

[pastry_chef]

If I was Ed, I would be having the tear-down performed by a professional and reputable independent third builder.
If this was the case, the identity of the independent pro might be kept private at this time.

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by 67'7F6'Bird

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

Earlier it was stated that the headers were built with a different supplied set of valve covers than the ones he decided to use?

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by BB70

RAIV Z, I hope you got your ducks in a row because the things you're saying and showing the world isn't adding up in my book. You are dragging thru the mud some of the most reputable shops around. You ought to just end this thread. You will be lucky to get anybody else to do anything else for ya. John

Put down your "Comic Book."

Why on Earth would he want the people who F'd this up to Help? This Math does not add up.
We can all See that Lynn McCarty and BES are doing nothing about this.

I can assure you phone calls, pm's and e-mails have come in because of this thread from "Truly Reputable Engine Builders" that want to help still make this a Successful Running Engine.

[2manyponchos]

Originally Posted by 67'7F6'Bird

I've seen the headers first hand when they arrived and they "Do Not Fit" with the Valve covers prescribed and supplied for the build. You can't even get a side bolted on completely to the heads or get more than a few bolts/studs to fit at one time on each side. Also, the tubes are crooked, minimal effort was applied in the tube to tube welding with bad angles were each section meets the next, steps created at junction points, overall Very Poor Quality welding. Basically they SUCK.

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by Ron H

Earlier it was stated that the headers were built with a different supplied set of valve covers than the ones he decided to use?

Stock Pontiac Height valve covers were never the intended use. I guess, if you want maybe two bolts on each side to hold them on then they would work.

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

Some of the tubes and the bends on them are so close to the flange you cant even get a bolt through the hole unless its put in from the wrong side of the flange. However, you bring up a Good Point of "No Quality Control" with regards to the heads. I would Agree.