[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Ron H

Tom Vaught said: the Engine Building was done by the "Mystery Builder", I think it is clear from what Ed said that BES built the engine.

Sorry if there was some confusion in my post BES BUILT THE ENGINE, period.
The Engine Builder, inside BES, is somewhat of a "mystery".

Sometimes the guy who builds the engine puts his name on paperwork or signs off on a checksheet as different steps are taken in the build. That is what I had to do at both of the race shops I worked at. Ford and Chrysler I believe had some engines for cars (like the Ford GT engines) had the valve covers signed by the engine builders. So you would think there was paperwork out there on who did the build and what his notes said vs what we are seeing in the photos.

On the bearing/block mods, I came across a illustration where the people recommended that oil to a camshaft bearing be added at 60 degrees after the 12:00 position of the cam bearing in the block. It looks like BES main saddle mod might be in that location. So the question I have is do we have two oil holes in each upper bearing shell or one? Camshaft loads are similar but not the same as main bearing loads acting on the journals.

Tom Vaught

[67copperbird]

I guess I have to ask why would you even have Lynn or BES build this engine anyway? I mean aside from buying the heads and intake from Lynn why would you have someplace half way across the US build it? Maybe I am just a weirdo, but from what I have seen from BES and Lynn, the bulk of their business isn't Turbo,big inch, fuel injected, Pontiacs. I personally would have chose Butler and/or someplace with turbo experience. Even at this stage if it was together you would still need a tune and the rest of the components for it. And your probably tired of hearing this but good luck with your build. Your experience is unfortunate.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by 67copperbird

I guess I have to ask why would you even have Lynn or BES build this engine anyway? I mean aside from buying the heads and intake from Lynn why would you have someplace half way across the US build it? Maybe I am just a weirdo, but from what I have seen from BES and Lynn, the bulk of their business isn't Turbo,big inch, fuel injected, Pontiacs. I personally would have chose Butler and/or someplace with turbo experience. Even at this stage if it was together you would still need a tune and the rest of the components for it. And your probably tired of hearing this but good luck with your build. Your experience is unfortunate.

I can understand your question but I will try to add a few extra bits of info.

Ed lives on the east coast in New Hampshire. Butler is in Tennessee, 18 Hrs away, Steve Morris is in Michigan, 18 Hrs away. Marty Palbykin is in Tucson, Az. Forget going out there. BES is 14 hours away.

BES is the closest, they have lots of engine trophys from the Engine Masters competition, BES had built a few Boosted engines, they were an hour or so away from Lynn. On a first cut it was an assumed no brainer maybe for Ed.

Tom Vaught



BES built Brian H's E-head Procharger engine. The second time Steve Morris dynoed Brian's CV-1 head engine.

[67copperbird]

Tom,
I can completely understand that. They are all fairly local to me as well. I guess the thing that jumps out at me is neither of them claim (at least on their websites) to be an efi tuners which is kind of where I was going.

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by 67copperbird

I guess I have to ask why would you even have Lynn or BES build this engine anyway? I mean aside from buying the heads and intake from Lynn why would you have someplace half way across the US build it? Maybe I am just a weirdo, but from what I have seen from BES and Lynn, the bulk of their business isn't Turbo,big inch, fuel injected, Pontiacs. I personally would have chose Butler and/or someplace with turbo experience. Even at this stage if it was together you would still need a tune and the rest of the components for it. And your probably tired of hearing this but good luck with your build. Your experience is unfortunate.

Assurances were given in the very beginning and BES supposedly produced quality work.
And, Yes, in hindsight it could have been built at the beach in the sand by an inexperienced child and it would have turned out better.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Sorry if there was some confusion in my post BES BUILT THE ENGINE, period.
The Engine Builder, inside BES, is somewhat of a "mystery".

Sometimes the guy who builds the engine puts his name on paperwork or signs off on a checksheet as different steps are taken in the build. That is what I had to do at both of the race shops I worked at. Ford and Chrysler I believe had some engines for cars (like the Ford GT engines) had the valve covers signed by the engine builders. So you would think there was paperwork out there on who did the build and what his notes said vs what we are seeing in the photos.

On the bearing/block mods, I came across a illustration where the people recommended that oil to a camshaft bearing be added at 60 degrees after the 12:00 position of the cam bearing in the block. It looks like BES main saddle mod might be in that location. So the question I have is do we have two oil holes in each upper bearing shell or one? Camshaft loads are similar but not the same as main bearing loads acting on the journals.

Tom Vaught

There are 2 holes in each upper bearing shell.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 67copperbird

I guess I have to ask why would you even have Lynn or BES build this engine anyway? I mean aside from buying the heads and intake from Lynn why would you have someplace half way across the US build it? Maybe I am just a weirdo, but from what I have seen from BES and Lynn, the bulk of their business isn't Turbo,big inch, fuel injected, Pontiacs. I personally would have chose Butler and/or someplace with turbo experience. Even at this stage if it was together you would still need a tune and the rest of the components for it. And your probably tired of hearing this but good luck with your build. Your experience is unfortunate.

BES had a stellar reputation, I assumed if Tony was responsible for picking parts, machine work, assembly and dyno testing, I’d be in really good hands. Everyone involved knew the design goal was 1600HP on pump gas. Everyone involved was sent the Turbonetics turbo sizing assumptions dated 2-11-2-11. “Let me know if you want me to post them again” There was also mention that Holley was interested in coming onsite to help with the dyno tune. Obviously after seeing what was being used for rockers, Tony didn’t pick all the parts.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

There are 2 holes in each upper bearing shell.

If it was one hole and moved to the lower position then maybe in my mind they might have tried to hit the "Optimal Location" position mentioned in the CAMSHAFT oil feed illustration.

With both holes open it would seem to me that the lower hole would be blocking some of the oil flow from the upper hole.

Course you do not know which hole is "winning" that battle but you do know that there is high pressure oil pushing on the backside of the main bearing die to the 3/8" x 1/5" groove.

Like I said you have lots of oil going thru the normal hole to the grooved upper bearing.

So that Racing Mod is a "Mystery" to me from the fluids standpoint, maybe Eric "Boss Bird" has seen that mod on aircraft engines.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

2manyponchos, do you by chance work for AM General?

Tom Vaught

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

2manyponchos, do you by chance work for AM General?

Tom Vaught

Big Diesel plant in Columbus Indiana. Starts with a "C"

[Tom Vaught]

Confused, I did not think that The Indy Cartel had ANY engine building capability.

Tom Vaught

[2manyponchos]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Confused, I did not think that The Indy Cartel had ANY engine building capability.

Tom Vaught

Tom, as Rob mentioned I am a mechanical engineer for Cummins and I have primarily done cooling system development work for new products with a little bit of lube system development in the last 2 years. During my time at the Big C, have worked on everything from the launch of the 2003 HPCR 5.9 to the 15 liter Class 8 product. The current project I am on was seeking a small secure facility with 2 or 3 capable people that could campaign/upfit existing assembled engines as the product evolved. Things like crank swaps/liner changes etc. Joe had previously completed some prototype machining, tooling fixtures, and service tools for us and we began talks about taking some engine builds to him. After a site view with the technical program leader, build coordinator, program director, and a few engineers, we decided Joe's shop would meet our needs. Definitely not his mainstream business, but he provided the space and capable folks along with himself to get the job done. We provided the parts, components, engines, calibrated torque wrenches, and any specialty tools needed to assemble the product. The first batch of business involved crank swaps/liner campaigns and so on with around 20 "Alpha" level prototype engines. His shop also completed what I would call all the "blueprint" measurements for bearing clearances, liner protrusion, gear lash, etc. We obviously had to furnish calibrated gauges out of our lab, but they completed the work and documentation. Not to get into another pissing contest, but the work completed by Cartel was far superior to what we were getting within our own walls from a turnaround and quality standpoint. Difference of a small company with a lot of pride in ownership vs a union shop and I'll leave it at that. Just what I observed. If it came from Cartel, I didn't have to worry about extra cap screws under the valve cover bouncing around in the valve train. Anyway, having been impressed with the rebuild work that was done, we contracted Joe for our Pre-Beta build which was around 15 engines. Parts were shipped directly to his facility and his crew assembled the engines from ground up and once again took all critical measurements. It worked for us and met our business needs and goals at the time. We have moved the Beta build to the assembly line to prove out all the production processes and procedures, so the work with Cartel has mostly returned back to fabricating and fixturing since the first of the year. Like I said, just stating what I witnessed.

Sorry for the sidetrack.

[Tom Vaught]

Ok, so I have it now, We did a similar thing with a prototype Fabrication Shop in Livonia called Technosports. They have been competing for work against large shops like Roush for many years and can hold their own. They have a heavy background in Trans-Am type racing but can do any and all engine build work if necessary. Obviously being a top notch prototype/fabrication, Trans Am experience shop they hade all of the necessary measurement equipment so we did not have to loan them anything in our case.

The Big C does a lot of engine work so now I also can visualize your high hour at rated torque testing.

That being the case, then why is Ed's engine so screwed up? It ought to be perfect!

Tom Vaught

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If it was one hole and moved to the lower position then maybe in my mind they might have tried to hit the "Optimal Location" position mentioned in the CAMSHAFT oil feed illustration.

With both holes open it would seem to me that the lower hole would be blocking some of the oil flow from the upper hole.

Course you do not know which hole is "winning" that battle but you do know that there is high pressure oil pushing on the backside of the main bearing die to the 3/8" x 1/5" groove.

Like I said you have lots of oil going thru the normal hole to the grooved upper bearing.

So that Racing Mod is a "Mystery" to me from the fluids standpoint, maybe Eric "Boss Bird" has seen that mod on aircraft engines.

Tom Vaught

Aircraft turbine engines only use rolling element bearings; not journal bearings.....so the oiling scheme is totally different.

The peak loads on the main bearings will be roughly at (4) locations aligned with the up and down forces from each cylinder bank. The loads on the top half of the bearing will be most heavily influenced by rpm and weight of reciprocating parts. The load on the bottom shell is influenced by cylinder pressure, rpm and weight of recip parts. So it's important to flood all quadrants of the bearing with oil. The grooved upper bearing half helps distribute oil to the lower half.

It would be interesting to hear from the creator of this mod about the reasoning. Just guessing.....Perhaps it's needed for a super stock engine with thin oil and low pressure?

We've never done that on either of our cars.

Eric

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

Possible that the flange screw locations on the mockup heads don't match the actual heads on the engine build? That wouldn't be the fault of the fabricator, it would be the quality control on the head flange machining. Just throwing it out there. Guess I'm just a redneck hack like everyone else in Indiana and I'll keep the rest of my opinions to myself.

When the headers were finally attached the engine at BES, who was originally going to dyno this boosted "That's another story", you’d think someone would have noticed that the holes don’t line up.

Can the alignment issue be easily fixed? YES. Should I have to fix it? No, but I will.

Did you actually see all 8 header bolts inserted through each of the header flanges?
Did you see the turbos mocked up?
Did you see any valve covers on the mock heads Joey used while building my headers?

In all the pictures sent me, the only pictures with valve covers "stock style" were sent after the headers were bolted up to the engine at BES with most likely 2 end bolts.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

I shouldn't get involved in the commentary, but being from the area, I have seen some of the parts first hand. The headers fit fine on the mockup chassis/block/heads/valve covers supplied to Joe at Cartel. I do not know if the mockup components came from Ed or Lynn, but I saw the headers fit in a chassis that was a 69 Bird. I personally thought the headers were a work of art. They were tucked tightly against the heads/valve covers and looked good. I don't know the dialogue between parties and what was agreed or expected (and it is not my business), but the headers fit the components that were provided as a jig for fabrication. I work full time as an engineer for a multi-billion dollar company that currently uses Cartel for prototype machining/prototype engine builds. We have run no less than 30 complete prototype engine builds through his shop in the last 2 years, that go straight to an endurance dyno cell and pull rated power for 1000-2000 hours. My experience has been that they have good attention to detail and Joe is one of the best fabricators that I have seen during the 14 years I have been in automotive research and development. I'm just one person with an opinion I guess.

I'm having a hard time with the machine work pictures. Tony has done work for us LONG before anyone in the Pontiac world even knew of BES (late 80's/early 90's). They are a stand up group of folks from my experiences and very knowledgeable. On more than one occassion, we have taken problematic blocks/cranks/heads done by other shops (some Pontiac/some not) down to Tony and they find/resolve the issue. The issues at hand are definitely not typical of their business. Hopefully your concerns are addressed.

Your commentary is appreciated.

What I’ll agree with you about is the headers physically fitting the mock-up 69 firebird chassis supplied by Lynn along with the with the block and heads, unfortunately with the way the primary tubes were run, the top 3 header bolts on each side starting from the front cannot be inserted through the header flange from the bottom. Studs are also not a viable option for the center two due to the lack of clearance to get a tool in and tighten them.

Did you actually see all 8 header bolts inserted through each of the header flanges in the correct direction?
Did you see the turbos mocked up?
Did you see any valve covers on the mockup heads Joey used while building my headers?

You’re having a hard time with the pictures, imagine it's yours and seeing this stuff firsthand.

[dammen8]

Here is a pic of a factory LSX block that I assembled for a friend... Check out the grooves in the mains... this was the way it come from GM...

Looks like the same type deal to me

Chad

[dammen8]

OH my goodness that pic is big... sorry about that

Chad

[R 70 Judge]

Originally Posted by dammen8

OH my goodness that pic is big... sorry about that

Chad

Fits fine on my 24" monitor

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by dammen8

Here is a pic of a factory LSX block that I assembled for a friend... Check out the grooves in the mains... this was the way it come from GM...

Looks like the same type deal to me

Chad

We’d still like to know what benefit the grooved main saddle provides. If the main bearings in my engine looked like new, I most likely wouldn’t have questioned this modification.