[PAUL K]

The Butler E-Head (Turbocharged) has a dyno sheet that said it made 2885 Hp YEARS AGO and you want to brag about 1100 NA?


EHTTFMF!

[BADDTA]

^^^^^^^thats neither here nor there.

Brian

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by BADDTA

^^^^^^^thats neither here nor there.

Brian

Agree! (Thanks for the jump in moment)
Throw CV's, tigers, high ports,, warp6, raV on same motor, same turbos, and still achieve same power. Variances in boost at same power or some difference in power at a fixed boost psi is what you would see ! Seems foolish to think that because no one else has tried, that it can't be done

Mr Paul's comment IMPLYING that NA E-heads have done same or better as Mr Fulton's cv1 combo is questionable if not totally misleading. I know of NO OTHER NA combo making 1100 HP AT SAME COMPRESSION . (Let alone not cammed for NA application)
All NA combos I'm aware of exceeding 1100 hp using other heads run well over 14:1 compression and are cammed for NA at higher rpm as well.

Mr Paul, have you got examples to show I'm wrong?
BTW what's your highest HP Pontiac NA build from YOUR shop?

[chiefbigb]

I hope after all this that both partys show up and get past this. Im sure Jack will be there and will have the best setup possible with the testing he has done to that point. I drove one of my guys cars a few weeks ago that runs 6.20s in the 1/8th mile. I was in the low 6.40s. He could have sat in it and run .2 faster than me the next pass. Track time is everything.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Agree! (Thanks for the jump in moment)
Throw CV's, tigers, high ports,, warp6, raV on same motor, same turbos, and still achieve same power. Variances in boost at same power or some difference in power at a fixed boost psi is what you would see ! Seems foolish to think that because no one else has tried, that it can't be done

Mr Paul's comment IMPLYING that NA E-heads have done same or better as Mr Fulton's cv1 combo is questionable if not totally misleading. I know of NO OTHER NA combo making 1100 HP AT SAME COMPRESSION . (Let alone not cammed for NA application)
All NA combos I'm aware of exceeding 1100 hp using other heads run well over 14:1 compression and are cammed for NA at higher rpm as well.

Mr Paul, have you got examples to show I'm wrong?
BTW what's your highest HP Pontiac NA build from YOUR shop?

We made 980hp (Pontiac) naturally aspirated on a budget, but we have never done an unlimited budget Pontiac build. We specialize in very fast street/strip engines. However our heads and intake have run as fast a 6.8 @ 204 mph on a traditional Buick V-8 with standard push rod location ( once again a budget engine) and we are planning on going faster this year.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

We made 980hp (Pontiac) naturally aspirated on a budget, but we have never done an unlimited budget Pontiac build.

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.

We specialize in very fast street/strip engines. However our heads and intake have run as fast a 6.8 @ 204 mph on a traditional Buick V-8 with standard push rod location ( once again a budget engine) and we are planning on going faster this year.

At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.



At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

... ...

[twinturrbo406]

... just a nice pic update ...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.

NEVER said it was!

At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?

It's irrelevant, so I don't know why you would ask.

Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?

We specialized in head porting until we started building complete engines about twelve years ago. Now we specialize in both!

I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

Please start a thread telling us about all your accomplishments.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

It seems like you are making the comparisons.

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Why, is there something wrong with the calibration?

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

I never doubted ANY dyno numbers.

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I don't care.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

You should be open minded.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

I stand by my original statement "all the builds are winners".

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo

I don't have time to assume what other people think.

I hope this helps.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Fultons combo is NOT unlimited budget! More money than a street strip car? Sure, but no way unlimited budget.



At what weight and CI is this Buick? Is it NA? How is this relevant to a Pontiac discussion?
Do you specialize in port development or are you just another machinist with a die grinder porting heads and intakes?
I'm honest enough to say even I can make improvements with a die grinder and sand rolls but NO WAY am I a head porter nor am I claiming I could out do your work.

1100 HP NA Pontiac as a nitrous build(with the n2o off) compared against an NA Pontiac build with same ci or larger with over 3 points more compression is splitting hairs??? Really??? Cam timing events totally unfavorable to optimum NA requirements, manifolding, headers etc.. Really???

Just maybe you ought to find out who else uses the dyno Dick uses. Maybe you want to find out who witnessed results. Maybe find out what Dicks track reults were with his E-heads compared to numbers from same dyno. Others results from same dyno.

Its OK for you to tell us a dyno number, but somehow anything from the CV camp is a lie?

Dont get me wrong, not diminishing anyones Pontiac 1100+ hp NA build(not many regardless of head choice and they benefit all of us eventually), nor am I out to diminish your customers results.

I do however look at what an entire build is and judge it accordingly. They are all the sum of what they are.

To suggest nearly 4 points compression and same or greater cubes at higher rpm is "splitting hairs" is about as misleading as it gets.

Its as if you are assuming the average reader in this forum isnt smart enough to see the difference or know that a power adder motor is a completely different build than an NA combo.

Write this in the dust on your dash. If i went n20 single carb........1130hp. Youre over estimating the differences effect on power.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Write this in the dust on your dash. If i went n20 single carb........1130hp. Youre over estimating the differences effect on power.

1st your NA motor is above average. You've had doubters and non believers. Few if any from our "camp". Certainly not me. IN FACT I'm certain few know about the prominent "ehttfmf'rs" who behind the view of this forum were mad, jealous or outright indignant about what you, John and rest of team accomplished! (Welcome to our world)

I wonder how many here realize or are aware you could find 30 or more HP if you were willing to go after it.. (no small task)

2nd to your comment. What assumed load of N2O would you eventually plan to be adding to your base of 1130? Do either of us know if the DF LJ race is only a test/tune for future plans??? I don't have that info. I do suspect Dick and Bill haven't built a grenade and are leaving plenty of reserve for the future.

I'll stand by my previous comment.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

The Butler E-Head (Turbocharged) has a dyno sheet that said it made 2885 Hp YEARS AGO and you want to brag about 1100 NA?


EHTTFMF!

... simply stated, pointed out, or brought to your attention, not bragging ...

... and after all the internet experts clammering about what this head can't do ?? ... um, yeah every time we achieve a goal such as Fulton's combo (or better) Paul, I'm afraid you'll be reading about it, but you can call it whatever you like sir ...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... simply stated, pointed out, or brought to your attention, not bragging ...

... and after all the internet experts clammering about what this head can't do ?? ... um, yeah every time we achieve a goal such as Fulton's combo (or better) Paul, I'm afraid you'll be reading about it, but you can call it whatever you like sir ...

I'm tuned in. So far the dyno results are impressive IMO (but there are E-heads that have done better). Anxiously waiting for some track results. Dyno numbers mean very little on nitrous engines. If you have (or anyone has) exceeded 2900 hp with the CV-1 heads (or any head) please share the details.

[twinturrbo406]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I'm tuned in. So far the dyno results are impressive IMO (but there are E-heads that have done better). Anxiously waiting for some track results. Dyno numbers mean very little on nitrous engines. If you have (or anyone has) exceeded 2900 hp with the CV-1 heads (or any head) please share the details.

... there's never been an RPM Ehead combo that made anywhere near 1000hp, let alone over 1100hp on 13 to 1 compression, please get you're information in order Paul, but if you would, please tell us about any Pontiac making that kinda power on that compression ??? ...

... and that horse crap about N/A power not being a big deal on N20 engines, is just that horse crap, if one of our 903c.i. or 959c.i. N20 ProMod engines were down on N/A power, Sonny will not let that engine leave until the issue is resolved, the same protocol happens Reher Morrison also ...

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... there's never been an RPM Ehead combo that made anywhere near 1000hp, let alone over 1100hp on 13 to 1 compression, please get you're information in order Paul, but if you would, please tell us about any Pontiac making that kinda power on that compression ??? ...

... and that horse crap about N/A power not being a big deal on N20 engines, is just that horse crap, if one of our 903c.i. or 959c.i. N20 ProMod engines were down on N/A power, Sonny will not let that engine leave until the issue is resolved, the same protocol happens Reher Morrison also ...

Jeff Kinslers little 499 nitrous motor made 1,000 HP with a nitrous engine.

I have a $100 says Jeff would out run Fulton to the eighth! With a smaller motor, single four with a plate on a drag radial and NO SISSY STICKS!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

Jeff Kinslers little 499 nitrous motor made 1,000 HP with a nitrous engine.

I have a $100 says Jeff would out run Fulton to the eighth! With a smaller motor, single four with a plate on a drag radial and NO SISSY STICKS!

Lil Jack,
Well it is clear to anyone that can analyze a time sheet that Jeff could have done that to your last combination and is probably what caused you to build this combination.

Stan

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by twinturrbo406

... there's never been an RPM Ehead combo that made anywhere near 1000hp, let alone over 1100hp on 13 to 1 compression, please get you're information in order Paul, but if you would, please tell us about any Pontiac making that kinda power on that compression ??? ...


... and that horse crap about N/A power not being a big deal on N20 engines, is just that horse crap, if one of our 903c.i. or 959c.i. N20 ProMod engines were down on N/A power, Sonny will not let that engine leave until the issue is resolved, the same protocol happens Reher Morrison also ...

My information is in order. I'm not going to split hairs on compression ratio, how many carbs, etc. If you do then every engine would be a personalized winner with an asterisk next to it. Performer RPM heads have made well over 1100hp and have the track times to back up the dyno number.

How much horsepower did you guys make with nitrous on the dyno? How many kits? When you race will all the stages of nitrous be engaged the entire length of the run? Just a few examples of why dyno numbers on a nitrous engine are just part of the story.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I'm tuned in. So far the dyno results are impressive IMO (but there are E-heads that have done better). Anxiously waiting for some track results. Dyno numbers mean very little on nitrous engines. If you have (or anyone has) exceeded 2900 hp with the CV-1 heads (or any head) please share the details.

It's a good thing Robin went into NOS retirement, to date no E-headed NOS car has gone 174MPH at his weight as far as I'm aware of.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hty+TA+174+MPH

Jack has not run that fast with his new deal either.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

It's a good thing Robin went into NOS retirement, to date no E-headed NOS car has gone 174MPH at his weight as far as I'm aware of.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...hty+TA+174+MPH

Jack has not run that fast with his new deal either.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Calvin, I always liked Robins accomplishments. Why did he retire? I heard he never figured out why he kept melting parts after switching to the CV1 heads?

I saw Mr. Fulton's car run deep into the 7's with Eheads but I don't recall the mph. He went a hell of a lot quicker than Robin.

[chiefbigb]

Neither of the cars involved in this race currently run e-heads. They are great heads for the money and support good hp numbers. The design has also been out for 20 years and everyone has had that much time to maximize what they can do. Im sure if you gave both men 20 years to make more power than they are now It would happen. It will happen over time. The e-head has been maxed out without boost which they are not using. This being said port volumes/valve angle/ect must be changed to keep moving forward. Pissing the other man off often times creates the drive to do something you normaly wouldnt just to prove you can. We all gain from that.