[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Not sure what your trying to compare a boosted aplication to a naturally aspirated one. When we dyno it will be the baddest naturally aspirated Pontiac engine out there. I know theres one coming that will make more. But we have a plan for that too. There will be another thread before the year is out


It made 1205 at 8500. And held on to power past peak we ran it to 8800 on dyno and it only lost a few.

To make our target we will need to increase torque slightly and make it at a slightly higher rpm. I expect to peak at 8600 for power And 7700 for torque. If we do that the 1250 should be no trouble. We NEED rpm. Especially With this little head. We anticipate a 9000 RPM shift point. The goal would be to keep this engine from dropping below 8000 RPM on shift recovery.

I know this makes most people turn inside out. But if you want to make big power you got to get over the RPM. It is an absolute must. Horsepower is calculated, torque times rpm divided by 5250. The farther away from 5250 you are with the same torque, the more horsepower you make.

Hi Mike,
I know you have been waiting for me to post.

Very nice job. Great numbers.

Another advantage of moving the torque up in the RPM range is the ability to run more rear end gear which gives greater torque multiplication.

If you get your HP peak to 8600 and it holds on like you say, I think you will be leaving some et on the table if you only shift at 9000.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Hi Mike,
I know you have been waiting for me to post.

Very nice job. Great numbers.

Another advantage of moving the torque up in the RPM range is the ability to run more rear end gear which gives greater torque multiplication.

If you get your HP peak to 8600 and it holds on like you say, I think you will be leaving some et on the table if you only shift at 9000.

Stan

So what is the shift number Stan? I know what my number would be for the shift.

Tom V.

[Aaron Quinton]

The shift RPM maximizes the area under the power curve between gear ranges. The shift rpm changes depending on what ranges are in the trans to maximize the area under the power curve. That is physics and what carries the day, Stan knows that. I really wished we could all get past the childish bs and share some real information within the Pontiac community. It really wears me down and I understand why some capable people avoid the place like the plague. And is the key reason I don't participate much here. I suspect others feel the same.

And Mike thanks again for sharing some real information, it's appreciated! Share some real info with Stan and utilize his math abilities and I suspect we all could learn something. Math and physics don't lye and Stan has it under control. It takes real world experience from the best to calibrate assumptions in the math. Crap in is crap out. There are guys here that can provide good input to the rest. Stan has demonstrated a good ability of math and physics. I think a lot of folks could benefit from partnering with this capability.

PPTTFMF!

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So what is the shift number Stan? I know what my number would be for the shift.

Tom V.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

The shift RPM maximizes the area under the power curve between gear ranges. The shift rpm changes depending on what ranges are in the trans to maximize the area under the power curve. That is physics and what carries the day, Stan knows that. I really wished we could all get past the childish bs and share some real information within the Pontiac community. It really wears me down and I understand why some capable people avoid the place like the plague. And is the key reason I don't participate much here. I suspect others feel the same.

And Mike thanks again for sharing some real information, it's appreciated! Share some real info with Stan and utilize his math abilities and I suspect we all could learn something. Math and physics don't lye and Stan has it under control. It takes real world experience from the best to calibrate assumptions in the math. Crap in is crap out. There are guys here that can provide good input to the rest. Stan has demonstrated a good ability of math and physics. I think a lot of folks could benefit from partnering with this capability.

PPTTFMF!

I appreciate what you're saying Aaron. But I think were pretty good on our math and physics over here. We seem to manage OK.

[Aaron Quinton]

And that is exactly what I'm talking about.

I really appreciate the data you are willing to share. Thank you sir, it's appreciated in the Pontiac community.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

The shift RPM maximizes the area under the power curve between gear ranges. The shift rpm changes depending on what ranges are in the trans to maximize the area under the power curve. That is physics and what carries the day, Stan knows that. I really wished we could all get past the childish bs and share some real information within the Pontiac community. It really wears me down and I understand why some capable people avoid the place like the plague. And is the key reason I don't participate much here. I suspect others feel the same.

And Mike thanks again for sharing some real information, it's appreciated! Share some real info with Stan and utilize his math abilities and I suspect we all could learn something. Math and physics don't lye and Stan has it under control. It takes real world experience from the best to calibrate assumptions in the math. Crap in is crap out. There are guys here that can provide good input to the rest. Stan has demonstrated a good ability of math and physics. I think a lot of folks could benefit from partnering with this capability.

PPTTFMF!

Aaron, Both Stan and I deal in Physics and Math every day. I would not be surprised a bit if our numbers were very close on the additional rpm needed.

Physics and the basic formulas for math do not change, no matter what the engine.
And as you said in other words, garbage in is garbage out.

As far as quoting me in your comment, maybe you should study the equations a bit yourself and then you could also partner in the threads.

If I remember correctly, I have been pretty close on the HP numbers a few times with my physics and math calculations. Keep posting Mike, looks like a great thread.

Tom V.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

If you get your HP peak to 8600 and it holds on like you say, I think you will be leaving some et on the table if you only shift at 9000.

Stan

True. Unfortunately we never had a good outing in the car. The runs I made were shifted at 83 to 8500. There's more left.

Trying to control piston speed some. And there's no sense beating the snot out of it when the car was obviously not performing correctly on the starting line. We realize we need to shift higher. We just need a little time.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by mike leech

True. Unfortunately we never had a good outing in the car. The runs I made were shifted at 83 to 8500. There's more left.

Trying to control piston speed some. And there's no sense beating the snot out of it when the car was obviously not performing correctly on the starting line. We realize we need to shift higher. We just need a little time.

I'm not exactly sure of the stroke in this engine, but the piston speed is right up there with NHRA Prostock engines.

If you compare Mikes projected 9000 RPM, it's like turning a small block 350ci engine to 12,000 RPM.

At these piston speeds, you are on the edge of maintaining the integrity of specific alloys within the rotating assembly.

Best of luck to you and your team!

Thanks.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[mike leech]

So.... Now we take a break to discuss heads. Johns a bad dude. The heads are not what some think or say. The valves have not been moved. In fact the factory installed seats are still in place. The valves are as large as will fit in the stock location. Ti intake...but still a stainless steel exhaust valve. Theres only so much you can do to them .....

[greggutknecht]

What cc is the intake port?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by greggutknecht

What cc is the intake port?

I don't know. There's a pushrod on one side of the port, a head bolt on the other side. Valve cover rail above and almost nothing to Seal a valley pan underneath. Never measured them for volume.

The real answer is not big enough. And that's the truth.

[mike leech]

As for headers.... Another piece of the puzzle where everyone goes wrong. If you're going to make north of 1000 hp you're going to need headers that are made for the engine your building. You're not going to buy them for $600 or even $800. You're going to drop your car off at somebody shop he's going to charge you probably two to $3000 to make you headers. Maybe more.

Or you can build your own. I made mine and I still had $1500 in material. That was on the super cheap. I made my own collector starting with The cheap OBX Collectors off of eBay. Made a megaphone and reducing cone speced by Scott. Yes they are stepped Hatters. The first tube is big the second tube is bigger and the third one is too big. I'm not going to say sizes and again it's a relevant to someone else's Engine anyway.

[john marcella]

Originally Posted by mike leech

I don't know. There's a pushrod on one side of the port, a head bolt on the other side. Valve cover rail above and almost nothing to Seal a valley pan underneath. Never measured them for volume.

The real answer is not big enough. And that's the truth.

Pretty good description. Lol

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by mike leech

So.... Now we take a break to discuss heads. Johns a bad dude. The heads are not what some think or say. The valves have not been moved. In fact the factory installed seats are still in place. The valves are as large as will fit in the stock location. Ti intake...but still a stainless steel exhaust valve. Theres only so much you can do to them .....

Maybe someone has some better graphics software than the freeware I use. The fact that the head is on an angle does not help. I am getting around 2.25-2.3" for the intake and around 1.8" for the exhaust.

Stan

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Maybe someone has some better graphics software than the freeware I use. The fact that the head is on an angle does not help. I am getting around 2.25-2.3" for the intake and around 1.8" for the exhaust.

Stan

So quick math will tell you that a 2.3 intake and a 1.8 exhaust will not fit in a stock valve location. This head utilizes a stock valve location.


I really do wish they were that big

[johnta1]

Maybe someone has some better graphics software than the freeware I use. The fact that the head is on an angle does not help. I am getting around 2.25-2.3" for the intake and around 1.8" for the exhaust.

With the 1.8" exhaust, 2.25 would be about as big as can fit.

2.3" would work but the exhaust would probably have to be around 1.7" or less.

The original valve seats may need replacing though for this size, though.

[yruslo]

Congrats on the HP Mike....will you make Beech Bend NMCA in May?

[johnta1]

Nice HP numbers.

What was the uncorrected dyno numbers?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by yruslo

Congrats on the HP Mike....will you make Beech Bend NMCA in May?

I'm not sure right now. They canceled my shoulder surgery due to the viral infection I had. Right now they rescheduled the surgery for May 11 but it would appear that may not happen depending on how quickly everything is cleared up but I get the greenlight.

If the car is running and I can move my arm I'll be there

[mike leech]

We actually gave up a few peak numbers but increase the average a bunch. This is actually what I feel is our best pull even though it's down 3 hp.