[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Great info, Tom, thanks! And you're right, Mr. Sherman was a good saver of stuff.

Here's an interesting one from the receipt notebook - suppose they billed the GeeTO program for work on the red car ...?

Interesting work order Tenney. It even has the car being worked on as a 1966 GTO.
That is strange but probably doable.

Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

I have it in my head that 4:56's were in the car from when Joe Conte owned it? I dont think he would have changed the rearend gears from 4.33's to the 4.56's. He seemed more of a collector to leave things as they are than changing them.

There were/are 4.56's in the 12-bolt spool that was in the car when it came to me from Joe, Don. Which, per Joe, was as the car came to him from Mrs. Sherman.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

It even has the car being worked on as a 1966 GTO.

The GeeTo program featured '66's at the time, as you know. So likely a good idea to bill as such either way?

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

There were/are 4.56's in the 12-bolt spool that was in the car when it came to me from Joe, Don. Which, per Joe, was as the car came to him from Mrs. Sherman.

That would make sense then. So the book is apparently wrong ???because memories aren't always correct.
The GTO must have just sat after the "original" 4.33's were liberated from it. The 4.56's are then put under the car when Sherman/Schornack pull the car out of hibernation for racing in the late 80's.
Don

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

That would make sense then. So the book is apparently wrong because memories aren't always correct.
The GTO must have just sat after the "original" 4.33's were liberated from it. The 4.56's are then put under the car when Sherman/Schornack pull the car out of hibernation for racing in the late 80's.
Don

I only remember the car when Greg was working on it having the 4.56 gears and the Super T-10 being under the car. The info about the spool would make sense but I never thought to ask about that deal.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Tom, good details and great story!! "Nice friend" to have that would try and sue you for that rear end. Don

I considered the guy a friend at the time. He was having some drug issues. That whole bunch was into MJ pretty heavy. Stayed at his house a few times and the mother used to brag about smoking MJ when she was in college and at their home.

So he sues me. I take the rear axle out of the car and was just going to give it to him and call the deal a bad deal.

I drive across the state and am walking toward the courthouse steps and I see the guy. I say "How are you doing, ******".

He says "I am taking your Azz to court, MF, that's is how I am doing"

So that was the end of giving him back the rear axle and skipping the court deal.

We go inside and the Judge says: "Mr Vaught, you can go first", so I told my story. Then "my friend" gets to talk and he is telling the Judge how much the rear axle is worth and how he wants it back and how I will not return it. The Judge asks one question: "Did Mr Vaught complete the work on your car?"

"My friend" says "Yes, But"

The Judge stops him and says "Case Dismissed, the rear axle belongs to Mr Vaught". So I walked out of court and never saw the guy again.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

R.I.P., David E.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...NEWS/110329884

[brut4s]

R.I.P.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

There should be one more picture (of the guy whose arms you see installing the passenger side head), installing the driver's side head
on the same "W" marked car/ engine in one of the Cars/ etc magazines.

The picture is taken from the passenger side so you can clearly see that they were not installing 421 SD heads on the engine, (or in these photos) BUT, you also can clearly see the "Pyramid" on the block of the 421 engine.

The block in your attached article is also straight across (on the passenger side) at the gasket surface at the front of the block, another clue of a 421 engine. A 389 engine has a cast in pocket in that area.


Tom Vaught

Tom, is the pic that you are referring too? Pyramid and the “W” on the firewall
Been awhile but heres the full article.

http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe...st_GTO_1-8.pdf

[Tom Vaught]

Yes, that is the article where I knew Jim Wangers was cheating on his engine size in the road test articles.

Point is thousands of people have looked right at that picture and just went by the words in the article.
The other way to tell it was a 421 was as mentioned earlier, the straight across passenger side block surface.
A true 389 surface is not straight across. It has a divit going from outside to inside that can clearly be seen.
The Wanger Car had enough pics taken that you could see the straight across block even though they had the one pic of the pyramid.
Even if you cut off the pyramid the divit is still obvious vs the 421 blocks straight block.

I have attached a picture.

Take that picture, copy it to a excel file.

change the size of the picture from 100% to 200% and the divit is very clear.

RIP Mr Davis.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

I have had the article for years and never gave a thought to checking out the writer, Alex Walordy and if he had simply been a sideline observer or did he know something about cars. I was actually trying to find the photographer and search if he had been present at any other GTO photo shoots. Anywho it turns out that Walordy had involvement with a lot of projects including British cars, Holley carb tech articles, early "soup up articles", and several Tex Smith publications. Still don`t know who did the photos but Walordy knew his way around cars and probably was on hand for the actual shoot at Royal for this article. Nevertheless he didn`t indicate that he suspected Wangers had created the ringer. Tom V. would have!

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by War eagle

I was actually trying to find the photographer and search if he had been present at any other GTO photo shoots.

The exterior "running footage" are press photos provided by McManus/Pontiac. Jim's driving. Images from this shoot are also featured in PHR 03/64 and CARS 03/64.

[War eagle]

Yes I have seen those pics in several period mags............all except the pyramid passenger side pic. Lots of speculation why it never showed up like the other pics in the other mags. (as far as my 20 some mags go). Could Wangers have seen the damning image and pulled it after it made the single mag? Possible he didn`t know about the 421 differences? Again....it seems odd that it never made another mag. Also the "secret" never revealed by anyone at Royal doing the work......for years! Talk about loyalty.

[Tom Vaught]

You underestimate Wangers.

Wangers knew a tremendous amount about that Red Car, if he was a noob, he would have said, "well maybe it had a different engine. The fact that he flatly denied the deed for years said he knew exactly about the engine and the real story (as did Jack Watson) and both knew the location of the Blue Car that was supposedly crushed by the factory too. You have grossly underestimated the knowledge of Wangers.
I asked about that Pyramid Pic years ago in person and Jim just gave me one of his famous smiles.

Tom V.

[War eagle]

Tom you've taken us no where regarding the one single post of the pyramid. (Your off for sure). I never underestimated him and forever believed that when asked where the "swap" took place and he indicated at Royal, then admitting in his book that he did the swap, I knew he was way more involved than others here think. His racing dates way before the gto as well. Again the pyramid pic may have been pulled when discovered and not released again. There may have been another reason we don`t see it in other publications or no reason at all..

[Tom Vaught]

Please repeat your post in english, Thanks

Tom V.

[John V.]

The car in the pic with the "W" scrawled on the firewall is the Code W Nocturne Blue car.

If I'm not mistaken, Wangers eventually copped to the 421 having been installed in the Red Car.

But the story goes that the Blue Car did not get the 421 and did not have the 3.90 rear axle. Both claims that I find shaky.

I may have underestimated J.W.s role in both of these cars.

I still personally consider the story of the Blue Car in regard to the Car & Driver article to be the more interesting of the two cars. No doubt the Red Car went on to have a glorious post test history and Tenney should be rightfully proud to own it today.

But the Car & Driver staff spent many more days and put on many more miles with the Blue Car including the road trip that John Jerome took with his then wife and young kids for a Christmas holiday in Florida, driving the Blue Car from NYC to Daytona.

The C&D staff gushed over the Blue Car during the time they got to spend with it in NYC.

And it was the Blue Car with manual steering and the Michigan plate HJ-4471 that seemed to repeatedly be the subject of other test reports during the model year, including I'm reasonably certain, the other article about the '64 that appears in the same issue of C&D where J.W. is actually named. I've only reviewed a few of these articles, far fewer than the 20 some mags that W.E. mentions.

But I'm not sure the Red Car equipped with PS (which the C&D report says was preferred by the writer, most likely Davis, Jr.) was the subject of any other test report articles.

And whether it was or not, the C&D article goosed sales of the GTO and I believe it was the Blue Car that had the most to do with why C&D wrote so favorably about the GTO.

If J.W. knew what really became of the Blue Car, it will be a shame if that story never comes to light. And also a shame that if the car had a real VIN, that PHS has not uncovered the Manifest for it. J.W. claimed it was a no VIN pre-production build but I remain unconvinced of that claim.

If the pic is proof of anything, it seems to me, it is proof the Blue Car had a 421 transplanted into it.

Such a shame that we know so little about this particular '64 GTO.

[Old Man Taylor]

I'm sure Tenney has better info than I, but it is my understanding from Jim that the blue car had a 389. While in Florida the engine in the blue car blew up. It seems to me that the car basically disappeared after that.

[Tom Vaught]

I believe there was an error in your post Jim.

The Red and Blue Cars were only in Florida once.
The Red Car was hurt during the testing and the Blue Car "flat towed" the Red Car back to Michigan. So the Blue Car could not have Blown Up.

Tom V.

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I believe there was an error in your post Jim.

The Red and Blue Cars were only in Florida once.
The Red Car was hurt during the testing and the Blue Car "flat towed" the Red Car back to Michigan. So the Blue Car could not have Blown Up.

Tom V.

Yep, you're right. I was confusing the Florida test with the Car Craft test. Old age sucks.