[Shwoody]

Does anyone have any updates about all this? RH68 had an appealing looking solution, wondering if any of those were ever put into production? The plate from Goatzilla looked simple and easy but there were some issues discussed in another thread.

I'm thinking of trying the Gaterman lifters with the Ford spider and dogbones unless there have been any new discoveries? Butler has a "068" roller cam I want to run. They offer a kit with link-bar Morels that have a revised oil band location as of 2021 but it'd be nice to save a little $ and theoretically increase reliability.

[vtxman]

I was wondering the same thing. After reading everything I could find, I ordered the Gaterman lifters and the Goatzilla plate. (just last week) I am hopeful the plate will work even if I have to make some modifications to it. If that doesn't work, plan B is to order the Ford spider and dog bones. But I am determined to use the LS style lifters in my 400 stroker build.

I will post my progress, but this is a slow build.

I would also be interested in the success or failure of other attempts to use the plate or dog bones. Maybe someone has even found a better solution.

[NeighborsComplaint]

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

The lifters being proposed for use with the Injun plates are not OEM. They are aftermarket, off the shelf lifters OEM style replacements. Chances are they are also made in China.

[Franked]

I'm building a 400 (+.060) block, with a 4.250 stroker crank, making a 468.
I bought a partially assembled short block, cam and crank were installed.
pistons, rods, rings were still in boxes. block was already bored, but not decked, and I am getting new cam bearings installed, my machine shop guy wants to re-balance the rotating assembly with the balancer and flywheel. and he is going to fit the rings (Mahle, forged flat tops, 9.7 to 10.3:1 depending on how much we deck the block, and the thickness of the head gaskets.
I ordered Edelbrock D port heads, CnC'd to 310 CFM from Kauffman, i expect those late may or early june.
the cam that came with this stroker kit is a Butler Grind Comp cams BP8022SP
.510/.520 lift 281/287 duration. 112* lobe separation.
When i put a couple used LS2 lifters in it (from an 05 GTO) and rotated the cam, the dogbones lifted about .030, and it looked like the full bottom of the lifter hit the lobe a little lifting the wheel from the lobe.
I have some 2148s showing up to try, but I wanted something factory reliable and lightweight instead of the heavy link-bar type lifters.
I do NOT plan on taking this engine past 55-5600, but I want a smooth operating valve train.
Frank

[Formulajones]

Just an FYI for those reading, the weight of a link bar setup shouldn't even be a player in the grand scheme of things so long as the rest of the valvetrain is setup properly (IE: correct spring pressures) And with these low revving Pontiacs that people are typically building in here, it's really a non issue.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Just an FYI for those reading, the weight of a link bar setup shouldn't even be a player in the grand scheme of things so long as the rest of the valvetrain is setup properly (IE: correct spring pressures) And with these low revving Pontiacs that people are typically building in here, it's really a non issue.

And another FYI for those reading. Shouldn’t or won’t? Posts keep popping up that might suggest shouldn’t.

I know, grease the wheels but there seems to be no magic retrofit bullet. And then the added cost…

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by P@blo

And another FYI for those reading. Shouldn’t or won’t? Posts keep popping up that might suggest shouldn’t.

I know, grease the wheels but there seems to be no magic retrofit bullet. And then the added cost…

Won't

Most guys here don't even spin their Pontiacs above 5500, and many others don't make power much above that. It's the street section. With a proper spring valve train control is not an issue with these things.

If you want to save weight on the valvetrain then look at retainers and valves and don't worry about link bars.

[Stan65]

Singleton,

For the guy that wants to keep the "EGR" valley pan, there are no other hydraulic roller choices I am aware of. It would definitely be for the "mild" build setup.

It's just a spit ball idea. Not in it to make a business. It's just a hobby and I like a challenge.

Here's to the "you can't fit a finned aluminum timing cover under the water pump on a 409" so I made my own. It was marketed for a few years by a buddy until he retired. I have the knowledge and ability, and he had the CNC mill.

Thanks,
Stan

[Formulajones]

Any reason why you want to keep an EGR valley pan?

Just thinking out loud but it seems it would be easier and much cheaper to just modify the EGR pan to work with retro lifters rather than reinvent the wheel trying to design a lifter to fit the pan.

There has to be a way to make the pan fit with a little time spent....??? If it were me I'd ditch it for a regular valley pan anyway.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by Stan65

Singleton,

For the guy that wants to keep the "EGR" valley pan, there are no other hydraulic roller choices I am aware of. It would definitely be for the "mild" build setup.

It's just a spit ball idea. Not in it to make a business. It's just a hobby and I like a challenge.

Here's to the "you can't fit a finned aluminum timing cover under the water pump on a 409" so I made my own. It was marketed for a few years by a buddy until he retired. I have the knowledge and ability, and he had the CNC mill.

Thanks,
Stan

Nice cover!

[gtospieg]

cool...following

[1969GPSJ]

Formulajones, it is not the weight that concerns me. It is the notable number (still I have not done a survey, so it's anecdotal experience information to be sure) of Pontiac, Chebby (both BB and SB), and F*rd folks who have been having link bar failures in street driven or street/strip driven cars. The spider and dogbones are (in factory and aftermarket use in F*rds) seemingly very reliable, and the movement of the spider is well within it's spring range, and as long as the lifter roller does not fail, the dogbone is not under significant mechanical stress. For everyone who has investigated or is interested in doing this option, you need to go back to the source (Jim Lehart) and his prototyping and how he completed engines, and how they are running now to determine the proper way to do this and whether you want this as an option over a link bar system. Comp cams isn't going to do it because there just isn't enough $ in it for them compared to the bajillion f*rd small blocks out there, and there is a proven system for the chebbies too.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 1969GPSJ

Formulajones, it is not the weight that concerns me. It is the notable number (still I have not done a survey, so it's anecdotal experience information to be sure) of Pontiac, Chebby (both BB and SB), and F*rd folks who have been having link bar failures in street driven or street/strip driven cars. The spider and dogbones are (in factory and aftermarket use in F*rds) seemingly very reliable, and the movement of the spider is well within it's spring range, and as long as the lifter roller does not fail, the dogbone is not under significant mechanical stress. For everyone who has investigated or is interested in doing this option, you need to go back to the source (Jim Lehart) and his prototyping and how he completed engines, and how they are running now to determine the proper way to do this and whether you want this as an option over a link bar system. Comp cams isn't going to do it because there just isn't enough $ in it for them compared to the bajillion f*rd small blocks out there, and there is a proven system for the chebbies too.

My feeling and from my experience, the link bar setup is still a very reliable setup. The amount of people that have actually had issues are really such a small percentage it's not worth worrying about in my eyes. Basically all you'll find on internet research is failures because people like to complain. Rarely if ever you'll find praise on something, most likely because the majority are too busy enjoying their cars.

When you think about how many link bar roller setups are in service around the country, or world for that matter, without issue, then it's starts to come into perspective a bit.

[Stan65]

Just started looking into the retofit roller stuff for my current build. Just finished reading the entire thread. I have also watched some videos on the net. Has anyone cosidered making pontiac specific dog bones to be used with the Ford spider?

Couple questions for anyone who knows. What material is an original Small Block Chevy dog bone made out of? Like steel type or is it powdered metal etc. What rockwell hardness does it need to be?

Whats peoples thoughts on the double fork like the Ford vs the complete rings like the SBC?

I am looking for a SBC one to determine the harness and material if nobody knows off hand.

I am going to look into making a set with my local Machine/Fab shop.

If I go through with it, what would people be willing to pay for a set if they are NICE pieces. This will help with my buy in if I can sell a few.

Thanks,
Stuart "Stan" Landreth

[Singleton]

I’m not sure that you could sell many of those custom pieces. The whole point of the retro-fit is that all the parts are cheap and readily available over the counter at any parts store. Once you introduce custom one-off pieces or special lifters (gatorman), the whole affair starts to lose its appeal.

[Stan65]

Yes sir. Notch is for casting clearance. Will probably have to grind on the rear passenger bone for additional clearance. Will start test fitting these hopefully this weekend. There is a counter bore also to allow the “round” part of the lifter body to rise above the block casting without raising the bone up.

The material for these is 4140 prehard which has a 32RC hardness. The original small block Chevy bones I tested are 38RC. LS’s are some type of nylon so the wear is the concern more than the strength.

Any opinions or concerns are definitely welcome.

[Stan65]

The hard part is finding them. The actual LS lifter is different. You need to find the design in my picture. The give away is the oil hole.

These originally were for the 86-99 4.3, 5.0, and 5.7 Chevy roller motors. The first LS’s also used them. At some point they changed the oil hole location and those WILL NOT WORK.

They are a little tricky to find.

Stan.

[1969GPSJ]

Franked, my build plan is fairly similar (in general terms) to yours, I just plan on using Kauffman D ports instead of the Edelbrock D ports. If you take a look at Jim Lehart's original methodology, you will probably see possible solutions to the dogbone clearance problem. When you combine that with Crawdaddy custom's look at lifters, and which ones seem to fit best, I think you can formulate a workable solution, without having to fabricate 16 dogbones when all the originals may require is some mild grinding as Jim Lehart did in his builds. Just a thought, YMMV.