[Formulajones]

Yes the weight of the valve train has a huge affect on spring pressures needed to control it.

On the beehive's, today there are many more options that work. Back when I was playing with them on LS engines there wasn't, so the go to solution then was a typical double spring swapped onto the LS engines. Beehive's have a few advantages though (smaller retainer being lighter is one of them) so if I could find a beehive spring package to work with a particular combo I was building today I'd go that direction.

Yes there are lighter valves than stock available. You could even get into hollow stem or sodium filled stuff (GM did this on some LS engines)
It just depends on how much money you want to spend. Personally I prefer to go with either titanium or tool steel retainers on all engine builds to lighten things up, and lighter valve assemblies when I can, even on a typical street engine build. Spring pressure will also be a result of how aggressive the lobe profile is. Even on a mild street engine build the valvetrain ends up being a somewhat spendy part of the build.

[Murf]

Hey Larry, which part of the build is the inexpensive part?

You wouldn’t have an older style 857 lifter you’d sell, would ya?

Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Murf

Hey Larry, which part of the build is the inexpensive part?

You wouldn’t have an older style 857 lifter you’d sell, would ya?

Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

LOL you are exactly right about that Murf

There is one set here we are holding on to that dad ran in his old engine for about 4 years (that was almost 20 years ago, lol) they were a whisper quiet set in his engine. I was told, I think by Tom, when I put up a picture of them that they are actually a set of Johnsons that Comp was using and reboxing back in that time frame. I always thought they were Morels. Anyway, unfortunately nothing to sell.
Maybe you told me and I forgot, did you have one go south?

[Murf]

Yeah, I’ve got a bad one. I was hoping to find someone who had a pair they could part with. Trying to save some money on the wife’s car, so I can spend it on me!


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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Murf

Yeah, I’ve got a bad one. I was hoping to find someone who had a pair they could part with. Trying to save some money on the wife’s car, so I can spend it on me!


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LOL

[tom s]

FJ,did you send me a pair?Need to check when I get home from Mammoth.Tom

[Shwoody]

Does anyone have any updates about all this? RH68 had an appealing looking solution, wondering if any of those were ever put into production? The plate from Goatzilla looked simple and easy but there were some issues discussed in another thread.

I'm thinking of trying the Gaterman lifters with the Ford spider and dogbones unless there have been any new discoveries? Butler has a "068" roller cam I want to run. They offer a kit with link-bar Morels that have a revised oil band location as of 2021 but it'd be nice to save a little $ and theoretically increase reliability.

[vtxman]

I was wondering the same thing. After reading everything I could find, I ordered the Gaterman lifters and the Goatzilla plate. (just last week) I am hopeful the plate will work even if I have to make some modifications to it. If that doesn't work, plan B is to order the Ford spider and dog bones. But I am determined to use the LS style lifters in my 400 stroker build.

I will post my progress, but this is a slow build.

I would also be interested in the success or failure of other attempts to use the plate or dog bones. Maybe someone has even found a better solution.

[NeighborsComplaint]

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

How a low-priced, aftermarket OEM replacement lifter would be less problematic than a high-priced aftermarket retrofit lifter still doesn't compute.

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

The OEM has to warranty the engine for 50K miles at any one of 30,000 service departments, and all the customer needs is to have a VIN number and an odometer reading to prove the warranty is valid. The aftermarket "retrofit" lifter is warrantied on an individual, customer-specific basis. (i.e., If they buy a lot from us, we'll warranty a set now and then. If this is a D-I-Y, he'd better have a receipt and be within 1--3--6--12 months on a vehicle that probably isn't driven 10,000 miles/year, and maybe less than 1000?)

Aftermarket parts are often bottom-feeder junk with little or no QA, and potentially designed by amateurs/hobbyists/enthusiasts, and then invisibly re-designed by the actual offshore manufacturer by using inferior steel, improper heat-treat, imprecise machining, etc. OEM parts may be imported from the same hell-hole, but they're studied, inspected, verified, statistically-analyzed. They're produced in sufficient quantity to get "volume pricing".

There's exceptions. For example, GM built the Citation; and advertised how many millions of dollars went into the development and testing to assure a high-quality, dependable, economical vehicle. It was thoroughly engineered: Apparently, they spend one million dollars to design the car, and then spent four more million to carve all the quality and production costs back out of every single system. OTOH, Moog built a reputation on it's "Problem-Solver" line of parts that (used to) be a trustworthy upgrade from OEM--OEM with the mistakes and cost-cutting removed.

The lifters being proposed for use with the Injun plates are not OEM. They are aftermarket, off the shelf lifters OEM style replacements. Chances are they are also made in China.

[tom s]

Entry level Morels im told are made in Mexico.That is from Mike Jones at Jones cams.Tom

[glhs#116]

I think the OEM replacement argument is that most of the purchasers will put them in ordinary cars and then do ordinary mileage on them. In other words tens or hundreds of times what the average classic owner would. Also when they break they will act like ordinary customers and demand refunds and compensation. Therefore even the "OEM-replacement" part has to be better engineered and QAed than the average "high performance" aftermarket part which largely has to look cool. I too trust OEM and good-OEM-supplier parts way more than any "hot rod" part. Of course, when what you need is only available that way you buy the hot rod part from vendors with good reputations and hope for the best.

Lifters, as seems famously known around here, were great when they were still 99% going into grocery getters and became mostly garbage when they became "enthusiast" parts. Meanwhile, newer lifters for current engines that were 99% grocery getter parts remain reliable.

Sam

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

I think the OEM replacement argument is that most of the purchasers will put them in ordinary cars and then do ordinary mileage on them. In other words tens or hundreds of times what the average classic owner would. Also when they break they will act like ordinary customers and demand refunds and compensation. Therefore even the "OEM-replacement" part has to be better engineered and QAed than the average "high performance" aftermarket part which largely has to look cool. I too trust OEM and good-OEM-supplier parts way more than any "hot rod" part. Of course, when what you need is only available that way you buy the hot rod part from vendors with good reputations and hope for the best.

Lifters, as seems famously known around here, were great when they were still 99% going into grocery getters and became mostly garbage when they became "enthusiast" parts. Meanwhile, newer lifters for current engines that were 99% grocery getter parts remain reliable.

Sam

One thing everyone forgets is those OEM lifters in OEM applications are also running on OEM springs, which are lucky to have seat pressures of 90-100 lbs, and running on OEM lazy lobe cam profiles. That's why they go 200,000 miles. It's a package, and not necessarily the lifter that is the hero.

Always ran into that when doing LS engines. Even low mile examples back in the day, the conical springs were just weak.

Building a performance engine is a different ball game.

My opinion, using what is believed to be OEM lifters isn't any better than available off the shelf stuff. I hope people aren't approaching this just trying to save a buck.

[vtxman]

The main reason I decided on the Gaterman lifters is because the oil supply hole in the lifter seemed lower than the other options and would align better with he oil hole in the Pontiac block. Many of the LS style lifters don't seem to align as well. I also like the oil port that lubricates the roller. I don't know how reliable the lifter actually is, or who makes it. I figured that for $199, I would give it a try and take one for the team. I can't pay upwards of $800 after seeing pictures and posts describing the failures of the high dollar, big name lifters.

[Franked]

Ok, 335 posts, and then NOTHING. For a year. What happened to this thread?
I saw 5 potential solutions here.
1. Cutting on the open ended dog bones to make them thinner, so they don't lift with the round part of the lifter.
2. a spider that goes under the bone, as well as on top.
3. the plate, which I can't find for sale
4 a thicker bone that has more room for the lifter.
5. cutting the flats farther down the lifters, so they don't lift the bone
Did ANY of these make it to production?
I am building a 468 with a Butler specced comp roller cam, Edelbrock D port heads, CnC'd by Kauffman. I bought the Ford spider and bones kit, and they ride up at max lift, maybe .030 to .040. I REALLY don't want to mill 32 spots on the dogbones, or 32 flats on the lifters. I would like to bolt something in to make this work. Is there anything resolved?
Could I weld something onto the bottom of the bones? maybe stack 2 sets together to make them thicker, and cut the retainer part out of the bottom set?
I could possibly make my own plate, or my own under-over spider, but all these solutions would take ME so much labor, It would be easier, and cheaper for me to just buy a 700$ set of johnson's or Morels or something.
did this thread go somewhere else?
Frank

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Franked

....I could possibly make my own plate, or my own under-over spider, but all these solutions would take ME so much labor, It would be easier, and cheaper for me to just buy a 700$ set of johnson's or Morels or something....
Frank

Exactly.

Many are using the Johnson's/Morels successfully, take the time to do proper prep, R&R, and your' chances are very good it will be successful.

Or just go solid roller.


.

[Formulajones]

Paul C just told me Johnson has another batch of hydraulic rollers in stock for Pontiac. He orders directly from Johnson. However they aren't $700 anymore. He told me the price has jumped to $1100 if I remember correctly. This was just a few weeks ago. Like everything else, prices are going up.

I ordered a set from him for a Chevrolet he's doing machine work on for me. I don't much care about the cost, just getting a good lifter straight from the manufacture means more to me than saving some dollars. I won't buy the cheaper stuff found on the internet that "claim" Johnson as a lot of that stuff has been found to be reboxed garbage.

[Franked]

Thank you for the response Paul. I like the Idea of a factory roller lifter, especially if it's lighter. I am wondering what happened to all these guys who had something they made, did anything ever get produced, so Joe public(as in , ME) could buy them? I may try milling the flats lower on some lifters, I bought a 4 pack of the sealed power HT2148s on ebay, they haven't arrived yet, and I took my block and stroker assembly to the machine shop so my guy can tell me how I screwed up, and charge me to make it better, so I can't test right away.
I will post what I decide to try, I am also looking forward to seeing what length custom pushrods I need, I don't have the heads yet, so that is a wait item too.
All this is going into a 1964 Lemans, like my first car, but not the same car, with a T-56 Magnum Transmission, and a 9 inch housing made for these cars. Hopefully I won't be breaking parts!!
Frank

[Bill S]

I have just started my 0.040" over 455 recently with the HT2148 and spider setup. Going easy for awhile breaking in and playing with ignition timing.
My issue is I have HS roller rockers 1.65 ( really 1.69-1.70) ratio, and did not want to replace them. My current head / valve / retainer setup calculated to a safe .570" lift.

All the recommended roller cams would not work with my rockers. I had a cam speced as follows from Ed at Flow Tech.: (I believe Comp Cam intake # 3052 intake , 3053 exhaust), 230 / 240 deg at 0.050" lift, 0.320 cam lift for .544 valve lift. 114 deg LSA installed at 111 deg. Base circle measured 1.189". About 0.030" clearance between the lifter and spider.
Thankfully I still have a Mopar offset key kit # 4286500 to degree the cam properly.
Had to relieve grind the dog bones, with #7 requiring more grinding to get the dog bone perpendicular to the lifter. The other trick is the amount of bending of the spider so it applies sufficient pressure the the dog bones. That took a few rounds a "bend to fit". I applied oil to the setup and rotated a multiple time to ensure the bones were not bind on the lifter, rise up and remained flat. Of course bought a pushrod checker to order the correct length.

I will report back as I plan to have to tested on a DynaPack dyno to compare to my modded '04 GTO.