[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

hmm, the wording appears to have changed;
As I recall a couple years back aftermarket rids were banned because the assumption was that they would be lighter - or something to that effect.

I am pretty sure I have an older set of rules saved on my computer.

They've been allowed for years. A few hundred grams you might save in weight won't do anything for performance. It's not an advantage other than better reliability and a safety factor. It's really the pistons where you can find a slight performance gain.
I built one of my PS engines with aftermarket rods about 8 years ago and had this discussion with Dennis. So I know they were allowed at least that far back and I'd guess even sooner.

[unruhjonny]

thanks!

to bring this back to the discussion of “rubber rods” (a new term for me!) vs earlier SD rods vs 58-62 rods…
it looks like the older stuff all the info is there;

1) what info is there to compare the (66+?)69-78 rods against the earlier ones?

2) so what might stop a person running an earlier engine with the later cast rods?

[TXSTARFIRE]

Interesting thread. It is kind of fun to read through the PY forum and find out all of the things I did wrong years ago. I put my motor together in 1978 when I was going to tech school. At the time the 58-62 rods were supposed to be the ones to use so I did. My dad had a 1960 Catalina with 186,00 miles on it so I pulled the rods out of that motor. Didnt replace the bolts or resize them, just put them on the pistons. Worked out OK, I put 50,000 plus miles on the car with 4.11 gears and shifted at 6000 RPM. 1967 GTO with 400 and headers. Ran a best of 12.99 but usually 13.20s with slicks and open exhaust. 13.50s on street tires and thru the mufflers. Been setting in the garage for 26 years and just fired it up again a couple weeks ago.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

thanks!

to bring this back to the discussion of “rubber rods” (a new term for me!) vs earlier SD rods vs 58-62 rods…
it looks like the older stuff all the info is there;

1) what info is there to compare the (66+?)69-78 rods against the earlier ones?

2) so what might stop a person running an earlier engine with the later cast rods?

The connecting rods sometimes referred to as the rubber rods are made from 58-62. Next came the Nodular Arma steel rods 63-67 (may have went into 68) rods which had a slightly lighter I beam versus the 68 and up nodular rods. The rods from 68 and later are all close to the same except the 73-78 eliminated the lube hole in the cap to spray toward the cam. New rod bearings do not have provisions for the oiling anyway, so that is no big loss.

You can switch any of the rods around, it just affects the balancing. The rotating assembly ends up a couple percent off. Most of the extra weight on the nodular rods is at the piston end, so most of the difference in weight is cut in half on the bob weight. In other words the extra weight of the nodular rods is more on the piston end, which often times mean you can swap the rods back and forth a not notice as much difference in balancing a you might expect.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by TXSTARFIRE

Interesting thread. It is kind of fun to read through the PY forum and find out all of the things I did wrong years ago. I put my motor together in 1978 when I was going to tech school. At the time the 58-62 rods were supposed to be the ones to use so I did. My dad had a 1960 Catalina with 186,00 miles on it so I pulled the rods out of that motor. Didnt replace the bolts or resize them, just put them on the pistons. Worked out OK, I put 50,000 plus miles on the car with 4.11 gears and shifted at 6000 RPM. 1967 GTO with 400 and headers. Ran a best of 12.99 but usually 13.20s with slicks and open exhaust. 13.50s on street tires and thru the mufflers. Been setting in the garage for 26 years and just fired it up again a couple weeks ago.

Sounds like stuff we all did back before we had the internet. How did we survive. LOL

[GTO-relic]

You fellas either are selling offshore rods, promoting/defending others who do, or have those offshore rods in your motors, and are ego butt hurt about it. You have the cheap Chinese Dollar General rod addiction, and can't give it up. Admit reality, and face it. When this economy CRASHES in near future and your lives are wrecked, remember it was your buying decisions that did it, and others like you. This is the forecast from the most accurate forecaster alive today. US economy peaks 2032, then crashes, we will be rewound to 1986 level, China takes over completely by 2037.

We'll come back to this thread 2037, I'll remind you about it. If there even is a PY Forum anymore.

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by TXSTARFIRE

Interesting thread. It is kind of fun to read through the PY forum and find out all of the things I did wrong years ago. I put my motor together in 1978 when I was going to tech school. At the time the 58-62 rods were supposed to be the ones to use so I did. My dad had a 1960 Catalina with 186,00 miles on it so I pulled the rods out of that motor. Didnt replace the bolts or resize them, just put them on the pistons. Worked out OK, I put 50,000 plus miles on the car with 4.11 gears and shifted at 6000 RPM. 1967 GTO with 400 and headers. Ran a best of 12.99 but usually 13.20s with slicks and open exhaust. 13.50s on street tires and thru the mufflers. Been setting in the garage for 26 years and just fired it up again a couple weeks ago.

https://classics.nascar.com/video/gA...Xn_a~kSa0uCpSx

you mean like this ? there's nothing "wrong" with it. 8 Pontiacs with SD421 motors as high qualifiers starting the NASCAR Firecracker 250 in 1962 at Daytona, dominating the race throughout. With forged GM rods going 160-165mph for nearly 2 hours straight wide open, to the boards. Build the same engine today using the same parts it's capable of the same thing. You didn't heat treat your rods ?

https://classics.nascar.com/video/gA...Xn_a~kSa0uCpSx

[GTO-relic]

1962 Daytona 500 SD421 Fireball Roberts vs. Richard Petty
SD421 with GM forged rods wins.

https://classics.nascar.com/video/gA...Xn_a~kSa0uCpSx

[TXSTARFIRE]

relic, I think your examples are of motors with Super Duty rods and not the 58-62 forged rods. No I did not heat treat them. Just knocked the old pistons off and put the new (used) pistons on. They were TWR forged 30 over flat tops, which I guess are heavy by what I read here. And no I did not balance the engine, I did everything wrong but had what I thought were good results. This was my first car that I bought in 1975 before I had my liscence. It did not get used gently, but the motor is still in the car today and still runs.

[Formulajones]

What about the heads, intakes, ignition systems and the hords if other Chinese crap everyone is buying. Even most of the parts "claimed" USA made still come from China and other places first

You may as well get off that train cause USA made don't mean chit anymore.
Like I said before whether people want to admit it or not you've got something off shore on or in your engine whether you like it or not. You're in the wrong hobby if you're worried about it.

I find usually the ones that squawk the most drive a foreign car with a USA sticker on it. Talk about hypocrites.

What all this really boils down too is people are too cheap to buy the good stuff. While I understand budgets and everyone is different, it doesn't mean one method or another is right or wrong.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What about the heads, intakes, ignition systems and the hords if other Chinese crap everyone is buying.

Don't be "everyone".

Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.

Every dollar NOT spent on Communist Crap is a win for our economy.

[sdbob]

I'll pay extra if I have to for U.S. made products. I try to buy from local businesses. Asking is it made in USA?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

Don't be "everyone".

Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.

Every dollar NOT spent on Communist Crap is a win for our economy.

I agree, just funny to me how people here want to cry about it and likely don't realize they are doing it themselves anyway.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

You fellas either are selling offshore rods, promoting/defending others who do, or have those offshore rods in your motors, and are ego butt hurt about it. You have the cheap Chinese Dollar General rod addiction, and can't give it up. Admit reality, and face it. When this economy CRASHES in near future and your lives are wrecked, remember it was your buying decisions that did it, and others like you. This is the forecast from the most accurate forecaster alive today. US economy peaks 2032, then crashes, we will be rewound to 1986 level, China takes over completely by 2037.

We'll come back to this thread 2037, I'll remind you about it. If there even is a PY Forum anymore.

You need to stop accusing other members of anything. This is not political, its a hobby.
I am a bottom line guy as you can get lost in all the stuff in the middle.
If we all did as you ask the tiny little supply of SD 455 rods, early 3/8 bolt SD rods and the rubber rods would be gone in a matter of weeks and Pontiac racing would be gone. There is basically no more junk yards with early 60s Pontiacs in them anymore.
Pontiac's decision to NOT give us a large selection of high quality steel rods was their single biggest mistake IMO(and the open lifter valley) It sent more PMD blocks to a early grave than anything else.
its not like I have not put any thought into this. had a long conversation with Tom Molnar on getting us some fully counterweighted Pontiac cranks. The numbers do not work. Dies in China cost 50K (pre covid) USA dies cost 150K.
Then you have to pay for a run, 100 cranks or so. And sit on them for a decade+ trying to break even.
So we have forged Scat, Eagle ,Ohio and billet which is unobtainium for 95% of us.
You still have not given a reasonable answer on the crankshaft issue.
For most of us its a expensive hobby, something we do not really need to survive. So its a choice of being able to afford a 15k engine with some overseas parts or a 22K engine with all USA stuff.
Its a hobby dude and our TINY little hobby is not going to make or break the US economy. Long ago people in power made the horrible decision to gut our heavy industry and send it to China. And we are left with the mess.
China has its own problems and just might implode long before us.
Again, this is not 1982 and rubber rods still are junk.
The 2 things that made the Pontiac power level go up for the average guy was the Edelbrock head and the Eagle rod, like it or not.(and I won't own Eagles)

[Sirrotica]

From the book; How to build Max-performance Pontiac V8s, authored by Rocky Rotella:

Original Pontiac Rods

Cast connecting rods are very cheap to produce. Cast iron is generally very strong up to its elastic point, but tends to shatter once surpassed. A properly designed cast connecting rod can provide a long service life if an engine is operated within its intended limit, making it ideal for production engines. Steel forgings are durable but somewhat expensive to produce. Heat treating to a specific hardness is required to survive the greater inertial forces associated with power increase and/or high engine speeds, making it even more costly.

Depending upon the year and/or engine application, Pontiac used cast or forged I-beam connecting rods. A lowgrade forging with minimal heat treating was used early on, and it wasn’t dimensionally stable. During the 1960s Pontiac introduced a strong cast unit constructed of Armasteel, a GM trade name for a pearlitic malleable iron alloy that possesses some steel-like qualities. Because of age, stability, and durability concerns, I strongly feel that neither of these original Pontiac rods should be used in any high-performance engine.

Link to connecting rod article: https://www.pontiacdiy.com/connectin...c-v-8-engines/

Likely all you need to know about Pontiac passenger car connecting rods, (cast, and low heat treat forged) and whether it's practical to use them in a build under 600HP. The author says that it is possible, but taking a large chance to use either in a high performance build taking into consideration that no one has any idea of the history, number of cycles, quality of the original materials, how many times they may have been reconditioned, etc.

The NASCAR 421s were only making about 465 HP back in 62 so they weren't making what a hot street engine is now, they were naturally aspirated. Hot street engines now are subject to NOS, blowers, and turbos and a lot more connecting rod stress. What happened in NASCAR in 1962, and what goes into a 600 HP plus street engine today is apples to oranges.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

From the book; How to build Max-performance Pontiac V8s, authored by Rocky Rotella:



Link to connecting rod article: https://www.pontiacdiy.com/connectin...c-v-8-engines/

Likely all you need to know about Pontiac passenger car connecting rods, (cast, and low heat treat forged) and whether it's practical to use them in a build under 600HP. The author says that it is possible, but taking a large chance to use either in a high performance build taking into consideration that no one has any idea of the history, number of cycles, quality of the original materials, how many times they may have been reconditioned, etc.

The NASCAR 421s were only making about 465 HP back in 62 so they weren't making what a hot street engine is now, they were naturally aspirated. Hot street engines now are subject to NOS, blowers, and turbos and a lot more connecting rod stress. What happened in NASCAR in 1962, and what goes into a 600 HP plus street engine today is apples to oranges.

Rocky Rotella's opinion and yours pretty much align with my experience. IMO, connecting rod preparation and the fasteners are much more important than the material and heat treat up to 450 or so HP and RPM's exceeding 6200. If the big ends are round and straight, to exact size and quality fasteners are used, the "rubber rods" or factory cast rods have a low failure rate. Getting stock rods reconditioned PROPERLY with good fasteners will cost about $300.00 around here. Eagle rods are $400.00. They are far better material than any factory rod but have mediocre machining and tolerances. (China) Molnar rods are $650.00 and are also a Chinese forging, fully machined and inspected in MI, USA. Carillo I beam rods, best IMO, 100% USA forgings, 100% USA machining. $2461.20 at Summit Racing. Pick your poison. We all have our own budgets and limits and political convictions. It's nice to have choices.

[Jay S]

You would think there could be a more reasonable American made option between $650 and $2400.

Jim Bulter told me once how many Eagle cranks he sold, was either a total number or a dollar value for the first year they were out. If I remember correctly he said that number well over 100,000, that was either grand total of cranks sold the first year they were released or a grand total of how many he sold. Either way it was a big number..I if that was the total number of cranks sold and all those received Carrillo connecting rods, that would be over $246 million dollars worth of Pontiac connecting rods. LOL

Jim also mentioned an additional step they did to check to see if the rubber rods were able to be heat treated. It was a selective procedure looking for a particular grain pattern, the guy in Texas apparently didn’t just blindly do heat treating with those rods.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Jay S

You would think there could be a more reasonable American made option between $650 and $2400.

Jim Bulter told me once how many Eagle cranks he sold, was either a total number or a dollar value for the first year they were out. If I remember correctly he said that number well over 100,000, that was either grand total of cranks sold the first year they were released or a grand total of how many he sold. Either way it was a big number..I if that was the total number of cranks sold and all those received Carrillo connecting rods, that would be over $246 million dollars worth of Pontiac connecting rods. LOL

Jim also mentioned an additional step they did to check to see if the rubber rods were able to be heat treated. It was a selective procedure looking for a particular grain pattern, the guy in Texas apparently didn’t just blindly do heat treating with those rods.

There are Oliver rods, around 1650$ Not sure if the make a true Pontiac rod though. I bet at that price the billet blanks come form China.

[Dragncar]

I just want to race without being called a Communist !
I draw the line at cranks and rods, No Chi Com heads for me .
But....................... I do have some Speedmaster T400 parts.
Its a tough deal racing these days without some overseas stuff.
Even the good valves come from Argentina !

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

There are Oliver rods, around 1650$ Not sure if the make a true Pontiac rod though. I bet at that price the billet blanks come form China.

That is a little better, but there should still be a cheaper option.. I have a set of Molnar rods waiting to go in an engine that were still $900 on sale. Not cheap for what I think of as cheap. I looked it up and Oliver and it was $1656 is the base price and $2556 for the Max power set for a 6.8” BBC length, definetly no Pontiac RJ options. Oliver says they are all USA made. None of the USA made steel rods are H beam either, so I guess we are expected to go slower to run USA made products. The H beam is usually recommended for NA race engines for reasons.

I have 1 Molnar crank and 2 cut down 455 Nodular stroker cranks in 400 Pontiacs, then I have three engines with USA Billet cranks. I have another engine that has BME Aluminum rods, they are quite a bit cheaper than those USA made steel rod options. I will never suggest anyone make any kind of effort to reuse those old 58 to 62 Pontiac rods unless the engine is stock. A picture is worth a thousand words.