[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Do you like the Evolutions over the johnson 21160pr? I see they have another one that has shorter travel. ST21160PR. .030 total travel? Whats your thoughts on that one?

heres a link

https://vincentperformance.com/parts...fters/pontiac/

I should have looked at those part numbers closer. Those are pin oiled. I”ll look into those closer.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I should have looked at those part numbers closer. Those are pin oiled. I”ll look into those closer.

I looked it up and Johnson still does not appear to have pin oiling for a Pontiac. That link that says they are pin oiled appears to be wrong. The 3rd number in the part number should be a 2 or a 3 for pin oiling. All the Pontiac offering the 3rd number is a 1.

The 21160 is .3” taller than the 21120. I recalled that was what it was but I wanted to make sure. That is usually a feature for aftermarket blocks and higher lift cams. I would have to double check what the oil band position is.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I should have looked at those part numbers closer. Those are pin oiled. I”ll look into those closer.

So you think i should go with the johnsons if there not oiled axles?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So you think i should go with the johnsons if there not oiled axles?

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I am ok with not having axle oiling. But it is a nice feature. Johnson have it on other platforms. Could be they have it for a Pontiac and I am not aware of it.

There is also a Hylift Johnson lifter that would work with your combo it is HLJ-A-2375SE. They are all USA made with ultra slow precise metering and have pin oiling. But the cost is around $1100. Their down side is they have a very low oil band and on Pontiac’s the power noses over after 6000 when the cam has an aggressive intensity. The Johnson’s PR and ST will make power past 6000 with an aggressive cam.

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

You're saying my cam is aggressive, do I have to worry about breaking a lifter bore with this cam?

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The possiblity of a lifter bore breaking is not an issue from the cam itself. If something goes wrong on a lifter that is when there is a risk of breaking a lifter bore.

For your cam the average duration it takes the tappet to go form .006” tappet lift to .050” tappet lift is 51*. The smaller that number, the more acceleration and the quicker the lifter starts to move. This is fine, but the lifter has to have a sharp enough bleed rate or it will tick or make extra sowing machine noise. This cam must have the plunger of the lifter bore lockup up by .005” tappet.

This cam is pretty aggressive because the plunger on the lifter does not have much time to recover for the next cycle before it need to open the valve again... The lift isn’t aggessive at all, but the intensity is. A less aggressive cam like a Comp Extreme energy marine HR with 55* of average intensity the lifter has to lock up by .009” tappet to operate quietly, giving the lifter plunger more time to recover and lock up for then next cycle. That is a big difference.

If the lifter can’t lock up the plunger by those points, it has the same effect of running a Mechanical cam with excessive lash. It increase the acceration on the valve terrain and is hard on stuff.

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

The Johnon 2112OPR will handle that cam, and should be as quiet as any other option. The ST2112OPR will also, but the I don’t think a short travel is needed.

I have never done a set of the Johnson ST’s. I should not have blanket compared the Morel ST to a Johnson ST. What I have seen with Morel ST’s is one goes 30K miles on the street, and the next might break a link bar or loose and axle at 4K. A cam with 53* intensity is my max intensity I will use a regular Morel (which covers Lunati, Bullet, and Howard’s, plus some others.. all are made by Morel). My go to cam company is Bullet cams, and that is my connection to Morel, that is their in house lifter brand. They are a tough lifter, but have a rep for making a lot of noise.. Morels went 100K miles with no visible wear on a spinatron with .650” lift back when they were original tested. The only upgrade they have received is they went to float axles a few years ago, which is a good deal. But as cams have became more and more aggressive (which is an industry trend), noise complaints have gotten worse and worse with the Morel. I tend to not use them anymore. I only set up 1 Morel last year, it was a 53* with beehives.


The Evolutions will handle this cam also. If you by chance end up with a set that has a ticker,I’d just replace that lifter and move on, or look to see if it has debre in the valving. That applies to any lifter from any brand.


Hylift Johnson “SE” can handle this cam easy too, but $$$$. Bullet sells this lifter along side the Morels, and is highly regarded by at Bullet. Most people can’t get past the price, they don’t stock them anymore.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by charlie66

Man, I hope I didn't make a big mistake buying this cam. I thought I knew what I was doing. So, the Jonsons will be able to handle this aggressive lobe ok without worries you're saying? I'm wondering if I need a less aggressive cam now.

On a less aggressive cam I would have suggested solid rollers and not looked back. I have 3 cars set up that way.

The HLJ’s can rev well past 6, they just quit making power and loose valve control with aggressive cams like your cam just past 6. Johnson’s have slightly better valving and similar leak down rates, and seem to rev a bit higher with the same set up. I have HLJ’s on a couple of my engines and shift at 6k. They are done at 6k, and have rev limiters at 6, so what happens after that really doesn’t matter.

[Jay S]

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Bulter carries the HLJ “SE”, the end of the description helps describe the limit on RPM’s with them.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234800

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I ran the set in our 327 to 7300 rpm where we finally saw what appeared to be valve train control going away. It made peak power from 6700-7000

That engine has 145 on the seats for that bullet cam, titanium retainers etc .. so it's not a heavy valvetrain.

Bullet cam for the win