[SWEETJUDGE]

i just found out i may have a fake judge, & im not happy. the seller provided me PHS documentation stating judge, & its on the build sheet & can also see it on the partial paper from under seat. How can i truley tell?
Now a days a vin plate can be made, numbers can be restamped bodies can be swapped to frames.
these cars are over 30 years old & anything can happen.
ALSO is there any legal action i can take against the seller for MISREPRESENTATION.
IM PRAYING THIS IS NOT THE CASE & THE CAR IS REAL. there are too many correct parts on the car.
I NEED YOUR HELP & YOUR OPINIONS
notsosweetjudge

[Fake Goat]

BTW, if you need someone to bail you out of this car, I would be more than happy to give you what you have invested. I'll even throw in an extra $100 for putting the interior back together!

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Teacher, Teacher!:
...BTW, I just replaced the cowl on our car with one from a luxury model 71 Lemans. Is our car now a luxury Lemans because of the VIN tag? I'm not stupid, just having a little fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you are now the proud owner of a '71 Le Mans Sport (or whatever the V.I.N. tag says the car is). Once you attached the cowl of the new car to your original body, it assumed the identity of the new V.I.N. I hope that you have the title for that '71 cowl section. If the area around the original '69 V.I.N. tag is still viable, I would recommend that you cut the '69 tag, and some of its surrounding sheet metal, off the old upper dash (don't just swap tags, that is not legal in most states. Tampering with the tag and its rivets is illegal, cutting sheet metal is not.) and replace the '71 tag section.

[Ron Landis]

Like I said in earlier posts...where do you draw the line? Rebodied. Reframed? Cut in two? Built with NOS parts? Use common sense, treat others as you'd want to be treated. There would be no problems arise if everyone implimented total disclosure in their dealings. I try to because I know how much a piece of bad or incorrect info can cost you down the road. Buy and sell things for face value, be honest and look for the same in someone else. There are good liars out there, but you can usually bust one if you do your homework. Above all, know the cars!

[PonchoV8]

Actually the Judge wasn't the caddie version of a GTO. It was an answer to the Road Runner--a base car built to go fast. It just gets a higher price now because it's a Judge. High optioned Judges are not what the original intent of the car was. I was always a convertible guy, but a Judge came along and I decided to buy it after a little thought--and a couple weeks time. I would've sold the car long ago had the price not gone thru the roof.

btw, what's "readers rides"?

[SWEETJUDGE]

your funny, i know quit cold turkey, but i have 2 other gtos so it wont quite fix me.As i mentioned i have BIG problems.
i really think this is a bad joke, not from you, the guy who is telling me where i got my car from. I upset him when i tried to get his judge, and im praying he's returning the MADNESS i caused him.
I love harleys but i think they are overpriced rattle traps. I would lose parts everytime i ride. (harleys dont belong in the 9000 rpm range)but i brought it there everytime.

[BLKBRD]

I know that there is a "hidden" VIN stamped in the sheetmetal somewhere on the cowl. I've seen them on early Firebirds and have heard mention of them on this site. You may want to do a search for "hidden VIN". You should also check the frame for the VIN. Again, do a search on this site for location as I've read that may be located in several different places. Is everything else about this car numbers matching ( i.e. engine and components, tranny, rear, etc.)?

["Teacher]

I'm sorry about your addiction. Perhaps there is a twelve-step program...( "Hi, I'm SWEETJUDGE and I'm a Judgeaholic..." "Hi, SWEETJUDGE")
As for me, I understand regarding original sheetmetal and all. Our clone is really just a project to keep us busy in the dry spells and bring a little extra scholarship money to the school when it is finished. I used to "worship" cars several years ago (68 AMX, 67 GTX clone,68 Firebird, 69 Torino GT,Tri power67 GTO clone, 400hp AMC Hornet), but life and faith has replaced one "addiction" with different one. I still like the cars, and think 69 GTOs, Judges in particular,were the best ones for style and all, but they are still just machines when it comes right down to it. Used to bracket race a long time ago, before kids and management responsibilities. Sometimes life was easier as a "wrench twister"...but I wouldn't trade my life now for anything.I hope your car is the real thing.

[SWEETJUDGE]

readers rides is on the performance years home page.
it has pix & a little desription of peoples cars from the forum

check it out & put your stuff there
its truely a nice feature to the site

[Vrroom]

Teacher, Teacher....

In an earlier post you said "In practical terms, our "clone" will be as much a "Judge" (which is a Pontiac Lemans with options) as many original Judges.The whole thing seems a tad bit silly to a thinking man. Please don't think I am trying to be deceptive, but really, isn't a Lemans with Judge options just that, regardless of when and where those options were added?"

With logic like that, lets say that after several years of wedded bliss you come to find out that the woman you married was born a male. You find out that she (or he, in this case) had a sex change before you met her and she just neglected to tell you because she thought you might not marry her if you knew.

Would you feel different about her after you found out? I mean, come on, she has all the right parts now ......... right?

But really, isn't a Male with Female parts a woman, regardless of when and where those options were added?

Vrroom

[SWEETJUDGE]

heres a liitle insite ( just my opinion so dont anyone take it too seriously). A Lemans, gto, & a judge are ALL in the same familiy, meaning they start as lemans`s, get optioned to gto`s & then top of the line or the CADILLACed to the judge.Truely PHS documentation against the WINDSHIELD VIN is the only numbers im aware of that make it a judge & only PHS can tell you that. If your lucky you might still have the paper work under the seats that say judge ,but most times there gone or destroyed.now with part swapping & mis matching truely hurts the overall value of the car. AN ALL ORIGINAL untouched car will be worth more than one restored.It still has all the correct factory parts & sheetmetal.to the hobbiest like yourself i think it doesnt mean much but the difference between lets say a mint gto & a mint judge year for year part for part, the judge could bring 30K more than just a gto. thats more than some people make in a year & thats why they are cloned. ITS ALL ABOUT THE $$$$$$$$$
NOW, im litteraly addicted to gtos i think i have a serious problem cause i want them ALL & drive myself nuts trying to wheel & deal to get what i want.Some poeple are addicted to drugs im addicted to JUDGES. IS there a rehab for that i need to check in????
My problem is this the seller sold ths car to me as a judge, i took a loss on my HARLEY to get this JUDGE knowing the value will always surpass the bike & keep goig up in value.
The Hobby unfortunately turned into INVESTMENTS.
THE rich people who used to buy property now buy up these cars, & take away from us little guys who love, adore & worship these cars.
JUST watch BARRET JACKSON, those people have more money than sense, the more they buy the farther away we will ever get to getting some of those cars. ITS A DAMN SHAME.
I truley think someone is playing a very bad joke on me like i said i have PROBLEMS now my problem is to make sure my dream car isnt a fake
SO FAR SO GOOD i still cant find any conclusion its fake.

SORRY for the long story

[SWEETJUDGE]

DUE TO THE RESPONSES ive was able to reach someone (a judge owner) in my nieghborhood on the forums to stop by and look things over to see if he noticed anything unusual or tampering
with.
He was truley amazed with the car. THANK GOD & THE FORUMS
HE SAID You have the PHS and the build sheet all the numbers match nothing to prove it wasnt a judge.
I CAN NOW RELAX

thank you all for your contributions to this

[gtoric]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:i own my own print & sign shop & i can reproduce anything. phs, build sheets,even the graphics & stickers are easy to replicate </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The main reason that ordering your own copy of the PHS documents is suggested when purchasing a questionable and/or expensive Pontiac is exactly the situation you are suspecting. Any PHS document can be modified and copied. If you didn't get the original microfilm printout from PHS in the paperwork from the seller, be suspicious. If you're suspicious, order your own PHS packet.

You also mention a "partial paper from under the seat." Is this an original broadcast sheet? If so, and the information on that sheet says that it's a Judge, then that is pretty irrefutable proof that it is a Judge. You can't fake original factory documents.

[SWEETJUDGE]

long storry short, i pissed off the seller of the blue judge, there was a lot of mis-communication betwwen him & i & my friend who i thought bought it but didnt.the seller emailed me info about another judge for sale, but didnt want a physcho like me to bother him.
i got an email from him today stating that judge was sold & was a fake.The town & the other car the person sold, match from where i bought mine.
now im not sure if hes just f`n with me & would understand, (IVE APOLIGIZED A MILLION TIMES for the crap ive caused) but this is serious now.
my car is in the readers riders judges bottom of list
WHATS YOUR OPINION?????? HOW DO I TRULEY TELL??
i own my own print & sign shop & i can reproduce anything. phs, build sheets,even the graphics & stickers are easy to replicate

["Teacher]

One man was going to donate a GTO to us a few weeks back, but someone bought all four of his cars at once, leaving nothing to donate. I would certainly welcome any thing that would help our cause.I just hope it can come before we get too far into this car financially. (See "student rest project" thread in Body Shop)
But I think you hit on a good point. Where does one draw the line? Would it be "wrong" to put ram air, including decals, on a regular 400 2bbl GTO? What if it came verdoro green and someone made it purple with stripes? One thing I do not want is to build a race car. Two years ago I built a 400 hp Hornet,that got squirrely if you floored it on the highway at 60 MPH, and it ended up in the hands of a 16 year old girl.Never again.
Howver, we do wish to raise funds from this project, and unless it is an easy restoration, I don't know if even a GTO would make it if we had to put 12K into it. We are hoping to limit our investment to 8K (parts and materials) over two years.

[md1twal3]

The Boss - Why do you take issue with that? He is building a Judge clone, meaning it is not a real judge. He has disclosed that here and says he plans to do the same for the general public.

A cloned Judge, even from a lemans will bring far more money for his school than that of a lemans.

No deception, no problem, I say.

["Teacher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would love to see pix of this cloning job & will help with questions or parts if need be
KIDS today DONT even know what a MUSCLE CAR IS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The pics are in the "Body Shop" section under "Student resto project". Any help would be greatly appreciated. We just replaced the rusty cowl on this one, and boy, what a job! We test fit with the old the windshield and the "new" cowl fits perfectly. Good job, boys!

As for kids not knowing what a muscle car is, you are right. But I have turned my student's allegiance from "tuner cars" (Japanese cars with neon lights and carbon fiber body parts) to Good 'Ol Detroit Iron. Now they want to learn more about Chevelles, Super Bees,Cudas and GTOs. I wish they learned their other subjects as quickly.

[Nap]

Sweet Judge:
I would love to see your 1969 JUdge. I live in Norwalk.

nap

[The Boss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
The Boss - Why do you take issue with that? He is building a Judge clone, meaning it is not a real judge. He has disclosed that here and says he plans to do the same for the general public.

A cloned Judge, even from a lemans will bring far more money for his school than that of a lemans.

No deception, no problem, I say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do I take issue? It's the whole point of this thread. We are lucky that PHS exists and that cars can be documented, but others do not have that luxury. As long as this mentality exists there will be fraud, and although Teacher Teacher has no intention of deception he has created the condition for it to exist. We know that build sheets are available, some poor sole in the future may not and may unknowingly purchase a clone car.

I would not do it, and I would urge others not to as well. Changing drum to disc brakes and regular to tilt wheel are different. Lemans to Luxury Lemans to Judge - that's a stretch and could also be illegal.

Fred, I give freely to my church and am very generous to other organizations and individuals as well. I would urge you, and support you in a campaign to get the donation you are looking for. I am sure that we can find somewhere a car, maybe not a judge, but at least a true GTO that is more worthy of your students work.

[slowgto]

It sounds like you have good documentation, and the fact the numbers match, kind of makes me think it is a true Judge and the guy is messing with you. I would do the following:

-Get the PHS and go through every option and look for any conflicts or options that look like they were added.

-Check the numbers, casting dates, codes, part numbers on the block, heads, intake, carb, rear again. All correct for RAIII? All cast about 6 weeks before the car build date? Compare the block ID stamp to other cars.

-I would be very critical of the block VIN. Post a picture of it here so we can compare it to our cars.

-Check the VIN on the trans.

-Pull the plastic piece away from the dash VIN and see if you can see any tampering with the way it is mounted. There should be a rivet on each side that looks aged, and untouched. How does the VIN look? Does it have more rust than the area it is mounted too?

-Take the cowl screen off, hold a small mirror in there and look at the back of the Data Tag rivets with a flashlight. The rivets should look untouched, (dirty) on the top and bottom. If the Data Tag has any curved edges, it is an indication it was pried off.

-Post pictures of the VIN and Data Tag if you don't have another car to compare them too.

-Look for any indications the car was once another color. Look under door panels, throughout the trunk, under weather-strip, under the carpet, in the door jambs.

-What did you pay for the car? Did it seem cheap for a Judge in that condition?

I doubt there is any legal recourse. The guy will say he did not know and he acted in good faith. Used cars are pretty much "buyer beware" with the burden on the Buyer.