GTO Sales Flop........Detroit News, May 24,04 - Page 3 - PY Online Forums

455HOGT37 · #41 06-10-2004, 01:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by svede1212:
at this point i have mine and i don't care how many more they sell or what the internet pundits think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aparently you do care. Your entire post was recounting how other people react to your car... as if you are looking for acceptance from them. Are you happy with your purchase? Good. Don't get your feelings all hurt because my priorities differ from yours.

Admitting the car (every car) has problems does not make you an idiot for buying one. Live your life on your own two feet man!

svede1212 · #42 06-10-2004, 04:02 PM

i've given my opinion with my pocket book although i was sitting down when i bought it and not on my own two feet. after making my own path in life, on my own terms your suggestion although well stated is a little late for me. perhaps not here but on other boards i've stated my small nits with the car that obviously didn't prevent me from buying it. if you don't like it great, don't. what i find interesting is what is opined on these boards particularly by some (not all) "old goat" owners. my point was that they don't reflect opinion in the same proportion as in the real world (this is the cyber-world you know). pontiac sales numbers are way up. in talking with my salesman he said the car is pulling lots of lookers in. job done. the whole point of this "sales flop" theme was that the car did not have validity because of sales numbers. pontiac sales up, street acceptance is there. flop? my post was just to define where that measure misses the mark. you just define it the way it fits your world. don't worry 'bout it, you won't hurt my feelings.

AnthonyHSV · #43 06-10-2004, 04:22 PM

Svede you make a good point..

The GTO is supposed to be the Pontiac "Halo" Car...its brings ppl in..they can't afford it..good salesman then talks them into Grand-Am or whatever..

As you say job done..

455HOGT37 · #44 06-10-2004, 07:35 PM

OK, I'll bite... Can you attribute the upswing in sales to the Holden import, or perhaps the industry-wide, record low interest rates that GM instituted a couple of years ago?

I don't know about your part of the country, but around here, nobody even knows the car exists. Kind of hard to use it as a marketing tool if nobody knows about it, don't you think?

My office peers, almost without exception, purchase cars in this price range (35k +). Do you know how many talk about going over to Pontiac to check out what they have? I'm not aware of one single person. I certainly hear a lot about BMW, Mustang, and the latest "hot ticket": The Dodge Magnum RT (I sat in one today as a matter of fact). Mind you, I have no facts to validate the Holden as a "halo" car, but it seems nobody around here
gives a damn about it.

glenn bayard · #45 06-10-2004, 09:07 PM

Just a word of explanation re Pontiac sales........in a word a joke. Pontiac has LOST 37% of sales in the last 5 years........nearly unheard of, except for Oldsmobile, while Buick still struggles with declining sales. To maintain capacity utilization at the various joint factories GM has been giving Pontiac's away for about the past 18 months..........one of the highest 'fleet' cars ie corporate accounts that need an American image, not to informed individuals. This saddens me, becasue I once owned a great Gran Prix and currently a 68 GTO..........but these are the facts men.

Importantly, the highest volume dealer in western NJ has 32 dealers in total, a Pontiac dealer sits across the street from an Infinit. Reality.......ONE GTO has been displayed/only one in stock, on the highway view for over 3 weeks.....still sits there, at $1,500 off list. Across the street, they have 18 G35 Coupes, and sell on average 3-4/wk, at the same transaction price. YOU tell me if Pontiac nailed it or was it another dismal failure..........it's not you guys that I have a problem with, rather the incompetencies at GM/Pontiac management........they should be ashamed of themselves. Enough said, don't have the time to debate the obvious any longer. I wish you all well.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by AnthonyHSV:
Svede you make a good point..

The GTO is supposed to be the Pontiac "Halo" Car...its brings ppl in..they can't afford it..good salesman then talks them into Grand-Am or whatever..

As you say job done.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nickv · #46 06-11-2004, 06:19 AM

Well, Let GM get rid of Pontiac then, just like they did to Olds. Then get rid of Buick and then Cadillac. Since Chevy is the only one selling large quanities of cars why do we need the others? Obviously Chevy rules.

Problem solved, no more bitching about the GTO and Pontiac.

svede1212 · #47 06-11-2004, 06:23 AM

i wouldn't suprise me that the masses chase after their lastest fad and i go my way. do all of the guys in your office wear their jeans down around their kness? everybody's doing it. so you say over the last 5 years pontaic has lost sales? and this year, the year the "halo car" came out, they are way up? what does that have to do with 5 years ago? cars sales have also always been regional to an extent. in michigan the numbers are very good. california was first in love with jap cars and now euro cars. that there are spots of uninformed doesn't suprise me at all. i'd bet there's a good chance the guys buying the $35k cars never change their own oil or work on the cars themselves, hell how could you work on most of them. the 2004 is a throwback car wrapped in modern technology. the people, young and old, that have bought them are true 'car people' and not your average consumer. it's true most of the world has backed away from that but there's still a market. the niche cars are here to stay. maybe oprah or martha stewart should tell everyone that the GTO is the car to buy. that would get the herd of cattle to move in droves.

GTO 4MA · #48 06-11-2004, 05:49 PM

Bye, bye Glenn! Now we won't have to hear you constant comparision of a POS Infinity G35 with an '04 GTO - a comparison that's not a comparison - go over to the Corvette board and compare a Z06 with a turbo Jetta and see how far you get there - Bye, bye, bye - just what '04 GTO owners say to POS Infinity G35 owners!

Goat luver · #49 06-11-2004, 05:50 PM

Message for Glen,

If I hear you mention that the Infiniti or the Mazda or the BMW or the this or the that outsold the 2004 GTO in any given month I swear I will toss my cookies in your general direction.
I really don't think that you get it do you?
We owners really don't care who has outsold who.
All we care is that the 2004 GTO out performs other cars that are selling at twice the price and that the sacred GTO is finally back.
Personally I am proud that I am the owner of a minority car... it makes it more special.
It is a niche car... it was never meant to sell millions. Understand???
If you don't like it, don't buy it. That is your choice. Go join the rest of the ill informed sheep and buy the so called "better alternatives". Quite frankly we do not care!
We owners are tired of your silly little vendetta against the re-birth of the GTO.
Have a real nice life with your inferior BMW POS.
I mean that most sincerely. :-)

455HOGT37 · #50 06-11-2004, 07:05 PM

Some of you people are cutting your own throats if you truly love the Holden import. Only a handfull of you think the "GTO" is perfect, then a few more liked it just enough to buy it, and one or two will buy when the prices get slashed this summer... that pretty much wraps up the "demonstrated" market for the car. Do you think you can float this boat all alone? Face it guys, this car should have had wide appeal... calling it a niche car after it starts to slip in sales is a cop-out. Besides, Ferrari makes niche cars work, not Pontiac. Those of you who revel in the novelty of having such a "rare" car apparently don't understand that the stockholders likely arent as happy about that situation... and they are the ones in charge in the end.

Those of you who think the car is perfect have it good. Be happy with that. What you need to do now is shut your collective pie holes when others, who are not yet convinced, demand more from GM. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose. Unless your goal is to have the only one on the block, then you will see the car die on the vine. Will you be happy then?

There is nothing wrong with demanding more of a company and this is a great place to do it. However, if a handfull of you idiots think you can support the line all by your lonesome, you will surely kill a great product.

Nickv · #51 06-11-2004, 08:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Some of you people are cutting your own throats if you truly love the Holden import. Only a handfull of you think the "GTO" is perfect, then a few more liked it just enough to buy it, and one or two will buy when the prices get slashed this summer... that pretty much wraps up the "demonstrated" market for the car. Do you think you can float this boat all alone? Face it guys, this car should have had wide appeal... calling it a niche car after it starts to slip in sales is a cop-out. Besides, Ferrari makes niche cars work, not Pontiac. Those of you who revel in the novelty of having such a "rare" car apparently don't understand that the stockholders likely arent as happy about that situation... and they are the ones in charge in the end.

Those of you who think the car is perfect have it good. Be happy with that. What you need to do now is shut your collective pie holes when others, who are not yet convinced, demand more from GM. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose. Unless your goal is to have the only one on the block, then you will see the car die on the vine. Will you be happy then?

There is nothing wrong with demanding more of a company and this is a great place to do it. However, if a handfull of you idiots think you can support the line all by your lonesome, you will surely kill a great product. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah... It's really only a car sir. You seem to think the GTO is a living breathing entity with a soul.

And take it easy with the insults.

455HOGT37 · #52 06-11-2004, 09:46 PM

Don't look now Nick, but you bias is showing through (again). So it's perfectly ok to call someone like me a POS, or ignorant as in previous posts, right? Anyway, as I never mentioned or even inferred someone in particular as an idiot, I figured a few would self-identify. I'm shocked you fell for it.

No, the car is certainly just a machine. When I say die, I mean as a product - like the T-bird. BTW, how many T-birds vs Holdens do you see on the road?

Anyway, it's too bad many of you can't feel good about taking a good product and making it great. It's as if the mere possibility of wanting more from the car will somehow trigger GM to confiscate your cars in the middle of the night as punishment for disloyalty. For the life of me I can't figure out your rabid, cult like devotion to this thing. Hell, I like my Yukon, and I'll buy another one, but I am certainly not above pointing out its flaws in the hopes that the next one will be better.

Soon enough we'll all know if the "cult" can keep the "GTO" a viable product alone, or if we do need the soccer moms and BMW buyers. Good luck.

Nickv · #53 06-11-2004, 10:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Don't look now Nick, but you bias is showing through (again). So it's perfectly ok to call someone like me a POS, or ignorant as in previous posts, right? Anyway, as I never mentioned or even inferred someone in particular as an idiot, I figured a few would self-identify. I'm shocked you fell for it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't recall calling you a POS. I think your sadly mistaken. Yes I'm biased and your not?.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
No, the car is certainly just a machine. When I say die, I mean as a product - like the T-bird. BTW, how many T-birds vs Holdens do you see on the road? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen 2 T-Birds in our area. There are actually 3 04 GTO's owners in my town. Also FWIW, a co-worker of mine after checking out my GTO is now in the market for one.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Anyway, it's too bad many of you can't feel good about taking a good product and making it great. It's as if the mere possibility of wanting more from the car will somehow trigger GM to confiscate your cars in the middle of the night as punishment for disloyalty. For the life of me I can't figure out your rabid, cult like devotion to this thing. Hell, I like my Yukon, and I'll buy another one, but I am certainly not above pointing out its flaws in the hopes that the next one will be better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean like the rabid cult like following you have for the classic GTO? Who said no one want's the car to improve over time? You make it sound like the 04 GTO look will continue forever, like it will never change over the course of the next year or two. Upgrades and improvements are already set for 05. Or didn't you know that? For 04 the GTO is a great value for the money IMHO. It is a true GT type car with style, power, comfort and handling. Just what I want in a new HiPerf car. And you know what else? Even is this car was called the Pontiac Monaro, or Pontiac Lemans I would have still bought the car. It's that good of a car.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Soon enough we'll all know if the "cult" can keep the "GTO" a viable product alone, or if we do need the soccer moms and BMW buyers. Good luck. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't worry the GTO will be around for awhile. Get use to it.

GTO 4MA · #54 06-12-2004, 05:31 AM

Nickv:

I happen to be what you might call a "soccer mom". We have four classic Pontiac cars, three restored and one in the process of being restored. I bought an '04 GTO because I wanted a new high performance Pontiac car that everyone else didn't have. No matter what Pontiac does to this car in '05 and '06, there will still be those complainers saying why didn't they offer this or that. Having been around for the first GTO I still remember those same complainers. The complainers either are too young or soon forget that the '64
GTO was nothing but a LeMans with fake hood scoops, badges and a 389. Back then enthusiasts said why didn't they put the 421 in it? Why didn't they put disc brakes on it? Why didn't they put a real fresh air intake system on it? On and on just like today.

All Pontiac enthusiasts should be happy Pontiac brought a truly high performance rear wheel drive car back to the market! If they don't like it the way it comes off the showroom floor they can do exactly what people did back in the '60's, modify it to suit their own personal needs. My husband made a good living by installing numerous Hurst shifters, Hedman headers, Royal kits, and other mods in the early GTO's.

No, the '04 GTO isn't perfect, and the '05 and '06 won't be either in the eyes of some, but it met the objective of getting Pontiac back into the high performance rear wheel drive car market. Thank you Bob Lutz!

glenn bayard · #55 06-12-2004, 07:13 AM

PS.........you are the ONLY one that really 'get's it'. One must remember that virtually ALL members on this website are those that bought the GTO ie naturally biased, not objective. What they apparently are blind to is that appeal/competitiveness/attractiveness/desirability ARE all measured in sales, given similar price points. Your point of their 'beating their own drum for naught' is also right on. However, Pontiac management are idiots, keep on producing ugly/uncompetitive cars. However, with the Holden Monaro they had a WONDERFUL opportunity to enhance about 10 features, cost effectively, and enjoy robust sales. What did they do? Made about 10 changes, every damn one of them WRONG ie ugly wheel, ugly front end,deleted critical features like side air bags, optional sun roof, the list goes on and on.In a word Pontiac management are incompetent fools, should be fired. These are just another management team that brought you the homely/uncompetitve Grand Am, Aztec, the Korean Tempest...........even the Vibe is selling at 59% of the virtually exact Toyota Matrix.......why??? because few people can trust Pontiac to do anything right, and they would be right. Somehow the members on this site take objective criticism as personal, and it's NOTHING at all like that. And for your general information we own a gorgeous BMW 330 coupe and a 68 GTO............love both of them.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
Some of you people are cutting your own throats if you truly love the Holden import. Only a handfull of you think the "GTO" is perfect, then a few more liked it just enough to buy it, and one or two will buy when the prices get slashed this summer... that pretty much wraps up the "demonstrated" market for the car. Do you think you can float this boat all alone? Face it guys, this car should have had wide appeal... calling it a niche car after it starts to slip in sales is a cop-out. Besides, Ferrari makes niche cars work, not Pontiac. Those of you who revel in the novelty of having such a "rare" car apparently don't understand that the stockholders likely arent as happy about that situation... and they are the ones in charge in the end.

Those of you who think the car is perfect have it good. Be happy with that. What you need to do now is shut your collective pie holes when others, who are not yet convinced, demand more from GM. You have everything to gain and nothing to loose. Unless your goal is to have the only one on the block, then you will see the car die on the vine. Will you be happy then?

There is nothing wrong with demanding more of a company and this is a great place to do it. However, if a handfull of you idiots think you can support the line all by your lonesome, you will surely kill a great product. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

svede1212 · #56 06-12-2004, 09:32 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by glenn bayard:
PS.........you are the ONLY one that really 'get's it'. One must remember that virtually ALL members on this website are those that bought the GTO ie naturally biased, not objective. What they apparently are blind to is that appeal/competitiveness/attractiveness/desirability ARE all measured in sales, given similar price points. Your point of their 'beating their own drum for naught' is also right on. However, Pontiac management are idiots, keep on producing ugly/uncompetitive cars. QUOTE]

that quote's a joke. about half the posts are GTO bashing. this is probably the most negative '04 GTO site on the net.

Nickv · #57 06-12-2004, 10:48 AM

You know it's one thing to state your opinion about what you like or do not like about certain cars. But to call those people for whatever reasons bought the 04 GTO Morons is well, let's say elitist.

Do you guys have stock in GM or something? I don't understand you rabid almost cult like dislike for a car. Very odd indeed.

455HOGT37 · #58 06-13-2004, 07:04 AM

GM is not in my portfolio, how about you Glenn? I'm not all that conservative as an investor, I'm just far from convinced the GM brass has a clue. If Lutz's handling of the GTO import is indicative of his total decision making process (my only performance indicator), then I will not likely buy stock.

For the record, and most people seem to miss this, I don't think the Holden is a bad car by any means. For me, it is just not good enough to justify 35k. Hell, I'm almost a fan of the car despite being a non-buyer, and I get the sense that Glenn is in the same boat. You all should be glad we are here. We take the time to post and hopefully start usefull discussion about the car and the company future (Of course many of you owners seem to take any critical opinions about the car like a direct shot to the heart). Bottom line: Glenn and I post looking to make Pontiac better. Tens of thousands of others just buy G35s.

Mr_GTO · #59 06-13-2004, 07:35 AM

Since when is the GTO $35K? Invoice is $29K and since it is getting close to July, expect rebates in the next time period and dealers wanting to deal.

I looked at a purple car yesterday. Nice nice nice looking color combo.

Nickv · #60 06-13-2004, 01:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by 455HOGT37:
GM is not in my portfolio, how about you Glenn? I'm not all that conservative as an investor, I'm just far from convinced the GM brass has a clue. If Lutz's handling of the GTO import is indicative of his total decision making process (my only performance indicator), then I will not likely buy stock.

For the record, and most people seem to miss this, I don't think the Holden is a bad car by any means. For me, it is just not good enough to justify 35k. Hell, I'm almost a fan of the car despite being a non-buyer, and I get the sense that Glenn is in the same boat. You all should be glad we are here. We take the time to post and hopefully start usefull discussion about the car and the company future (Of course many of you owners seem to take any critical opinions about the car like a direct shot to the heart). Bottom line: Glenn and I post looking to make Pontiac better. Tens of thousands of others just buy G35s. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's nice. I will say again and don't make me quote examples. One thing to deride GM or the new GTO, it's another thing when you call us buyers of the car idiots or uninformed consumers.

FWIW I paid 32K for car. MSPR is 33K not 35K. There are dealers who are jackasses that have raised the price up to 40K. Is that GM's fault? They have no control over dealers. The gouging by certian dealers I'm sure has not helped sales in the least.