AutoWeek Mustang vs GTO - Page 4 - PY Online Forums

plexitim · #61 01-13-2005, 12:41 PM

With all due respect, I am not sure I quite agree. If you think about it, the styling of the original 1964 GTO was All About being subtle.

DeLorean's brilliant idea was to build a sleeper. Meaning, take your basic garden variety LeMans/Tempest intermediate, stuff a HiPo engine under the hood, and provide a car to the masses that would burn the tires till you let off the Go pedal. Except for dual exhausts, fake hood bumps and little GTO emblems on all four corners and door panels inside, the original GTO's were conservative looking, understated. Subtle. Have to look for them to pick them out in traffic.

This is the same basic thing some folks are complaining about, with the '04's. Too subtle. Not distinctive enough.

At first I did not really like the looks of the '04's either. But now that the '05's have hood bumps and split the dual exhaust like a GTO is supposed to have, the more I realize they are more consistent with DeLorean's genius than the "old one" I happen to own.

red70goat · #62 01-13-2005, 12:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Randy W:
very few owners of old one's will admit the new one's are nice cars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are all a lot of dyed in the wool retro types that will agree the GM Monaro is a nice car. I myself have said that as a performance vehicle it is a worthy contender in the musclecar arena. It's taken a year or so to even get to that point!

However, given it's many generics in both powerplant and exterior design I feel, as perhaps many others do, it falls short as a GTO. That doesn't mean it isn't one given that GM owns the name of Pontiac GTO. They could manufacture,label and VIN a mini van as a GTO if they so chose and it would indeed be a GTO. Some of the original renderings weren't bad. Somehwere down the line the beancounters got involved and we got something that was a cross between a GrandAm and a Cavalier.

Goathead · #63 01-13-2005, 01:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It really wouldn't take much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Red, when does yours come in?

red70goat · #64 01-13-2005, 02:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It really wouldn't take much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Red, when does yours come in?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa...hold on there!

I'm not there yet, especially what GM is asking for an 05.

Not anywhere worth it in my opinion...the generics of this car don't substantiate that high of a sticker. They are on some sort of Beavis and LutzHead Fantasy Tour..and I don't really care for leather interior. I have however accepted this car as a viable contender to replace my tired 740i. I haven't accepted it as a GTO yet. I will admit though Tripowers' looked good in Silver with the spoiler OFF !! as I've said from day 1.

red70goat · #65 01-13-2005, 04:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> It really wouldn't take much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, Red, when does yours come in?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ps: cool firebird danny...that's a bitchin' time you posted...u da' man!

Goathead · #66 01-13-2005, 05:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> ps: cool firebird danny...that's a bitchin' time you posted...u da' man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, but Goathead68 did all the work for me, he's a genius....

salokin · #67 01-17-2005, 08:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It was a sad sad sad thing..... Kid pulls up to me while im at the car wash vacuming out my new 05 GT. Tells me how much he likes my ride, I thanked him, and went back to vacuming. He's behind me, and say's "So whaddaya think about mine?" I didnt even realize he was in a GTO, i just glanced at it, and mistakenly thought it was a Cavalier. On second glance i saw the Goat badge on the fender, and said "Oh... sorry, i didnt even notice... Nice car man." We struck up a conversation... he was a nice guy, and said he had wanted a GT, but didnt wanna wait for them to come out, and they practicly gave him the GTO, and he liked it pretty well except for the bland styling.

So... since i'd been reading all the Car mags that said my GT should be a couple tenths quicker than this kid, I asked if he wanted to run em... "Sure" he says, so off we go..... We ran em 3 times, once twice from a Roll, and once from a dead stop, and EVERY FRIGGIN TIME HE PULLED ME. And he couldnt even shift the damn thing quick... everytime he'd shift, he'd fall back. But that extra Torque just came on as we got rollin. I'd jump him by a fender or a door at the start, but by the time Id get to the middle of second gear.... it was all over.

Granted, My car only had 800 miles on it at the time, so possibly it's just not broken in, and running quite as good as it will with a few thousand miles on it.

BUT.... i guarantee this will NEVER EVER EVER happen again... I'll be getting the cold air kit, and the SCT tune, and I will be gettin a gear swap within a couple weeks.... Im debating on wether to go with a 4:10, or the 4:30's.... My car is a stick shift. Any idea on how much of a difference in the quarter mile a gear swap like this will make?

I love my new GT... but man im dissapointed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beaten by an 04 GTO not even an 05 GTO.

RandyW · #68 01-17-2005, 09:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> I love my new GT... but man im dissapointed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beaten by an 04 GTO not even an 05 GTO <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pluto · #69 01-18-2005, 02:37 PM

Tom DeMauro of High Performance Pontiac just reviewed the "05 GTO. Sorry to say, it wasn't a positive review. You hafta read between the lines. He was wholly disappointed...except for the engine. The test took place at the Bob Boudorant driving school. Maybe he wasn't in touch with the drifting mentality (who is?). Drifting is Jap kid stuff...the GTO is Jap kid stuff. Or maybe it was just the car.
I know I've been bashing the car but this is not how I feel about the Pontiac community. I have a great time with you folks at shows and races. Just thought I'd add that. Drift on....Bill

red70goat · #70 01-18-2005, 04:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by William Black:
... Maybe he wasn't in touch with the drifting mentality (who is?)..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lutz is. Tuners are. They are one in the same. GM Monaro & Drifting :...This is a perfect example of having bean counters slap together a car and then rush it into production to the wrong target market...It's too bad such a good car is being aligned with such an offbeat and pointless pursuit as "Drifting"

The 2004/2005 GT0 will be remembered as a good car but a bad experiment that eventually died into obscurity taking it's place among the Tucker and Pacer.

pont3 · #71 01-18-2005, 04:47 PM

Who gives a hoot what he thinks? Does any one think our opinions were influenced by what some magazine writer had to say? Most of the cars he praise would probably not even be considered by me. There are plenty of positive comments from other owners that mean a hell of a lot more than what a few who have driven it a few miles around some track and spent a few minutes looking at it. I'm sure if you look at back issues of HPP, you will see that they give very little coverage to the new GTOs. It just amazes me that people are so narrow minded that they won't credit a noteworthy attempt to bring back a legend. The way I see it is this: We can go back to a time that there are no rwd V8 Pontiac 2dr coupes, or we can demonstrate to GM that a market does, indeed, exist.

I've been a subscriber to HPP since the early 1980s and the magazine has become progressively useless to me. This insinuation illustrates clearly to me that my subscription to their magazine no longer matters to them.

Seriously, if the magazine opinion of the car mirrors yours, fine, no problem. But don't be sorry that someone stated their opinion. We are not offended. Then again, I'm sure you have agreed 100% on every article they have ever written about anything.

Goat luver · #72 01-18-2005, 06:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by William Black:
... Maybe he wasn't in touch with the drifting mentality (who is?)..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lutz is. Tuners are. They are one in the same. GM Monaro & Drifting :...This is a perfect example of having bean counters slap together a car and then rush it into production to the wrong target market...It's too bad such a good car is being aligned with such an offbeat and pointless pursuit as "Drifting"

The 2004/2005 GT0 will be remembered as a good car but a bad experiment that eventually died into obscurity taking it's place among the Tucker and Pacer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be wrong here, but of all the new GTO owners that post on this forum I don't think anyone of them is into drifting or is a "tuner". I am certainly not, so your theory of targeting the "wrong market" seems to be unfounded on this particular forum.

HUMBLER · #73 01-18-2005, 06:49 PM

I love tuner cars and Rhys Millen is the man in my book. Anyone who attended the GTOAA Nationals saw him strut his stuff and I have yet to hear anything bad about that display. There how's that!

Now ask me what my definition of a tuner car is...

red70goat · #74 01-18-2005, 08:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ozzy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by William Black:
... Maybe he wasn't in touch with the drifting mentality (who is?)..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lutz is. Tuners are. They are one in the same. GM Monaro & Drifting :...This is a perfect example of having bean counters slap together a car and then rush it into production to the wrong target market...It's too bad such a good car is being aligned with such an offbeat and pointless pursuit as "Drifting"

The 2004/2005 GT0 will be remembered as a good car but a bad experiment that eventually died into obscurity taking it's place among the Tucker and Pacer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be wrong here, but of all the new GTO owners that post on this forum I don't think anyone of them is into drifting or is a "tuner". I am certainly not,.... (QUOTE]

I wasn't saying that the owners of the new GTO on this forum are into drifting

or are tuners. In fact I'm finding that most of the owners on this forum have some damn fine respectable vintage Goats in their stable as well. I was referencing Lutzs' a original comment in 2003 about building a car that would appeal to the "younger dominant culture" ( his words ) via a Holden Monaro based GTO. When that didn't work he tried to convince the mainstream financial media that his original "intentions" were misunderstood. That this car was actually designed to appeal to the 100k + earner. Uhhh,yeah right. Nice try Bob.

red70goat · #75 01-18-2005, 08:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by humbler:

Now ask me what my definition of a tuner car is...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Tuner could be as loosley defined as a Musclecar. It could be argued that the early Camoros, Mustangs and Firebirds were not Musclecars but rather Ponycars. That the big Hemis, Superbirds, Daytonas were not Musclecars but Supercars. The Vettes, Cobras were not Musclecars but Sports Cars.However in todays climate they are frequently generalized as all being Musclecars. As far as Tuners: something to humor us until GM starts building a real musclecar again.

rabon008 · #76 01-23-2005, 09:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by humbler:

Now ask me what my definition of a tuner car is...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Tuner could be as loosley defined as a Musclecar. It could be argued that the early Camoros, Mustangs and Firebirds were not Musclecars but rather Ponycars. That the big Hemis, Superbirds, Daytonas were not Musclecars but Supercars. The Vettes, Cobras were not Musclecars but Sports Cars.However in todays climate they are frequently generalized as all being Musclecars. As far as Tuners: something to humor us until GM starts building a real musclecar again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about defining musclecars and Pontiac GTOs in as simple terms as possible?

Musclecar - a car of generic "family car" body style, generally with two doors, RWD and a powerful V8 engine.

Pontiac GTO - an affordable car of generic "family car" styling, having two doors, RWD and a powerful V8 engine.

Now, if those definitions don't work for musclecars and Pontiac GTOs, give me ones that do and reasons why mine are inadequate and yours are valid.

If you can't, then admit that the '04/'05 Pontiac GTO meets BOTH criteria.

red70goat · #77 01-25-2005, 06:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rabon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by humbler:

Now, if those definitions don't work for musclecars and Pontiac GTOs, give me ones that do and reasons why mine are inadequate and yours are valid.

If you can't, then admit that the '04/'05 Pontiac GTO meets BOTH criteria. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a Musclecar the GM Monaro fills the bill. As a GTO is falls short in it's generics: shared GM powerplant and fleet exterior design.

pont3 · #78 01-25-2005, 07:58 PM

As a modern-day GTO it exceeds the standard of a previous GTO and is an excellent starting point for future developement. Remember GM sharing powertrains in 1970? At that time you could get a 307 chevy in a Pontiac and all models had a Pontiac family similarity. The world has changed somewhat since then, though. My '04 offers every thing I want in a modern-day performance coupe. This car measures up in EVERY way.

Mr_GTO · #79 01-26-2005, 04:24 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by red70goat:

As a Musclecar the GM Monaro fills the bill. As a GTO is falls short in it's generics: shared GM powerplant and fleet exterior design. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generics? The old GTO didn't share the 389 with other pontiac cars? Oh right it did.

This is 2005, not 1965. GM has changed. To be competitive you need ONE line of engines, not 5 for each division. And FYI, the GTO shares the current engine with 2 other vehicles. The old GTO shared it with the entire full size line and didn't even get the top engine Pontiac offered. Now it is the exact engine the top dog Corvette gets.

Fleet exterior design? Yea, like the 65 GTO, Chevelle, Skylark, Cutlass, LeMans, etc. What other 2dr coup shares it's body with the GTO today?

red70goat · #80 01-26-2005, 01:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pont3:
At that time you could get a 307 chevy in a Pontiac (QUOTE]

Not in a GTO. That's my point. I could care less what the other Pontiacs have as powerplants.