[The Boss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Teacher, Teacher!:
Okay analogy. The difference is on one hand we are talking cars, on another a human being. On one hand we "oewn a machine" on the other we have a relationship. I have no relationship with machinery, but I do with my wife. I understand your analogy, but in the end a car is a car. I would be upset if someone sold it to me as an original if it were a replica, don't get me wrong. But my point is that many of the "originals" are practically replicas because nothing original is left on it. The point is, if I get the few parts that carry the right VIN and then build an entirely different car around it , then is that any more a Judge than the car than if I did the same, but starting with a Lemans VIN tag.
BTW, I just replaced the cowl on our car with one from a luxury model 71 Lemans. Is our car now a luxury Lemans because of the VIN tag? I'm not stupid, just having a little fun. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sir, I don't know you, but I do take issue with your logic. You say you are building this "clone" to raise money for the school, that you have no intentions of deceiving the buyer or representing the car other than it is. If this is true, why not build it as a Lemans, even a Luxury Lemans if that is the tag it now has. As a man of the Lord wouldn't that be the proper thing to do?

It is my belief that you would clone a more valuable car because it would be more valuable. That the deception it produces holds a higher intrinsic value to the purchaser. You have justified in your own mind that this car, somehow down the road, if misrepresented, is not done so because you built it, but because somebody else lied about it - but what have you done?

What makes a car you ask? Pontiac....that's what made the car in 69, and that is what it is today. As long as the vin is on the cowl, the dash, the trim tag or the frame - that is what it is. If you are truly a christian, you will find the error in your ways. WWJD?

[md1twal3]

The Boss - Why do you take issue with that? He is building a Judge clone, meaning it is not a real judge. He has disclosed that here and says he plans to do the same for the general public.

A cloned Judge, even from a lemans will bring far more money for his school than that of a lemans.

No deception, no problem, I say.

["Teacher]

Ouch!

WWJD? I know what he would NOT do. I know He would not accuse someone of deception when that person has and will disclosed that it is a replica. I also know His own words have been used to deceive people for two millenia, yet is He responsible and culpable for those deceptions?
I teach auto shop and religion at a Christian school,am a published Christian author and know my Bible very well, yet I have not played the "religion card" out of respect for forum's diversity of thought.While I have posted Philippians 4:13 as my signature, I understand that this is not a religious forum and will not use this forum as a posting board for my spiritual convictions .
If you are that concerned that building a replica is an immoral act, you are welcome to donate a real 1969 Judge in need of restoration.This gift would be greatly appreciated, and would be tax deductable for the selling price after restoration. However,I have found that many who are quick to criticize are slow to help.If you would like to discuss things of a spiritual and eternal nature, please feel free to email me at [email protected]

[The Boss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
The Boss - Why do you take issue with that? He is building a Judge clone, meaning it is not a real judge. He has disclosed that here and says he plans to do the same for the general public.

A cloned Judge, even from a lemans will bring far more money for his school than that of a lemans.

No deception, no problem, I say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do I take issue? It's the whole point of this thread. We are lucky that PHS exists and that cars can be documented, but others do not have that luxury. As long as this mentality exists there will be fraud, and although Teacher Teacher has no intention of deception he has created the condition for it to exist. We know that build sheets are available, some poor sole in the future may not and may unknowingly purchase a clone car.

I would not do it, and I would urge others not to as well. Changing drum to disc brakes and regular to tilt wheel are different. Lemans to Luxury Lemans to Judge - that's a stretch and could also be illegal.

Fred, I give freely to my church and am very generous to other organizations and individuals as well. I would urge you, and support you in a campaign to get the donation you are looking for. I am sure that we can find somewhere a car, maybe not a judge, but at least a true GTO that is more worthy of your students work.

[SWEETJUDGE]

BOY, I STIRRED UP A MESS.
I know of an abandoned judge but ive been trying to get for the past 16 years but guy just wont sell. Its a true basket case the vin # is worth more than the car.
Id donate it to the cause but dont think i could get it.
Lets all take it easy, MY JUDGE IS REAL, & was represented corret, i just had some doubts.
cars will always be cloned, as long as they are represented as clones all will know what they are getting involved with & its value
SO EVERYBODY take it easy
Would love to see pix of this cloning job & will help with questions or parts if need be
KIDS today DONT even know what a MUSCLE CAR IS.
SO hats off to you for educating them. MAKE sure you tell them the GTO is the GRANDFATHER of MUSCLECARS! NUFF SAID

["Teacher]

One man was going to donate a GTO to us a few weeks back, but someone bought all four of his cars at once, leaving nothing to donate. I would certainly welcome any thing that would help our cause.I just hope it can come before we get too far into this car financially. (See "student rest project" thread in Body Shop)
But I think you hit on a good point. Where does one draw the line? Would it be "wrong" to put ram air, including decals, on a regular 400 2bbl GTO? What if it came verdoro green and someone made it purple with stripes? One thing I do not want is to build a race car. Two years ago I built a 400 hp Hornet,that got squirrely if you floored it on the highway at 60 MPH, and it ended up in the hands of a 16 year old girl.Never again.
Howver, we do wish to raise funds from this project, and unless it is an easy restoration, I don't know if even a GTO would make it if we had to put 12K into it. We are hoping to limit our investment to 8K (parts and materials) over two years.

[md1twal3]

easy there SweetJudge...I don't think anyone is riled up...just one of the many "healthy debates" that you will see here. The boss does make a good point that I didn't think of, and I can respect that.

One can only hope that future sellers of that or any other clone will be honest, and one can also hope that potential buyers do their homework before buying.

The world is full of them & sometimes it is an affordable alternative to owning the real thing

["Teacher]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would love to see pix of this cloning job & will help with questions or parts if need be
KIDS today DONT even know what a MUSCLE CAR IS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The pics are in the "Body Shop" section under "Student resto project". Any help would be greatly appreciated. We just replaced the rusty cowl on this one, and boy, what a job! We test fit with the old the windshield and the "new" cowl fits perfectly. Good job, boys!

As for kids not knowing what a muscle car is, you are right. But I have turned my student's allegiance from "tuner cars" (Japanese cars with neon lights and carbon fiber body parts) to Good 'Ol Detroit Iron. Now they want to learn more about Chevelles, Super Bees,Cudas and GTOs. I wish they learned their other subjects as quickly.

[SWEETJUDGE]

teacher teacher, thanx for teaching the kids, they really need educating, & your right or future would be brighter, if they put as much effort in thier school work & as they do with hobbies. You can also teach them that some peoples hobbies become a business.Also how each part had to designed,configured, tested then produced. KIDS today just see the final project NOT ALL the work it took to complete something,ie frames were made somewhere, bodies built by fisher, so on & so on.its NOT just a car but a pile of manufactured parts engineered together, to make a car & quite a few business & peoples involved.
I'll have to check on your pictures, & feel free to private message me any questions if you like.
I myself own a printing & sign shop, which was a hobby that trurned into a business.
When your ready contact me,i would like to help, and donate the JUDGE stickers & striping.
these will be a MY reproduction of them Thermally printed but almost an exact match & ill even throw in ram air IV stickers for your hood, you might as well.
sweetjudge

[Nap]

Sweet Judge:
I would love to see your 1969 JUdge. I live in Norwalk.

nap

[SWEETJUDGE]

there are some pix on the customers rides section on the Perf years home page, Judge bottom of folder.

i can be reached @ [email protected]

i use to know a guy in norwalk who stored several GTOs at the OLD ice skate rink i think he had at least 5 or so & i think his name was paul or john

it it you ??