Tell Bob Lutz what you think of the GTO - Page 16 - PY Online Forums

Mr_GTO · #**301** 05-03-2005, 02:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:
Nothing, other than the badges and the fact that GM says it’s a Pontiac GTO.

GM says its a pontiac GTO. I say the LT1/LS1/LS2 are based off the sbc. does that make both of these statements right ? just because we say so ? i didnt think so either. there has been more then 1 article that ive read saying something along the lines of the newer motors evolving from the older SBC's.

more on the LS1 my roomie blew the motor was fine before he blew it. it was human error he missed a shift racing and went from 3rd to 2nd insted of 3rd to 4th. he did have a hypertech and adjusted the ECU. we tried to blow the LT1 because it was under warranty and he wanted another motor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If PONTIAC says it, it doesn't matter what ANYONELSE says.

2. The LT4/LT1 is a EVOLVED SBC. Meaning it has the same dimensions, interchangable parts, etc that can be shared with a SBC. The LS1 has NONE OF THAT. NONE.

3. Just because the LT1 didn't blow up(and trust me, PLENTY HAVE BLOWN UP) doesn't mean it is a better motor. And chances are that if your friend missed a shift it was more driver ERROR than the engine being faulty and a FYI for those that havne't actually OWNED a LS1 based motor, if you do miss a shift like that, you bend PUSHRODS,not break the entire motor.

skepecs · #**302** 05-03-2005, 05:33 AM

AMEN GOATFINK!!!!!!!!!!!

red70goat · #**303** 05-03-2005, 08:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoatFink:

8. The new GTO is a high performing vehicle and is a great value. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which division in Pontiac do you work in again? You basically said the same thing about the GrandAm and G6 via LutzBlog.

Skip Fix · #**304** 05-03-2005, 03:16 PM

Man I sense some hostility here!

I'll add my 0.02 in here. I'm now an owner of an 04. I also have a 78 TA, 81 TA, 65 GTO, 64 Impala SS 409, 79 Camaro,Late model asphalt car and a load of extra parts, all GM. I think I can qualify as a muscle car enthusiast. My close local Pontiac friend who has almost 20 classic Pontiacs form 3 63 Tempest/Lemans to multiple years of GTOs and Catalanias has a 2005 GTO.

For those looking for a classic retro look,attachment to old GTOs-correct it's not there like the Mustang(which I like alot). The look is more of a sleeper(anyone take a look at the FIRST 64 GTOS!!You cal that a real hood scoop). My 409 Impala other than a small 409 emblem looks like any 283 Impala.So not a new concept guys.

The new GTO is about the best performance rear wheel drive for the money in a GM car right now unless you want to pony up for a Corvette.An SS pickup or a Demali are the closest other vehciles and are AWD.If you want the retro looks and performance get a Mustang.I might one day but to used to GM engineers and how they do things.If you guys remember they pulled any other V8 RWD, no Impala SS or F bodies form GM!

To say an LS1 is related to the SBC is like saying the 78-79 TAs with a 403 Olds are related to a Pontiac motor(I know some of the die hard GTO guys might even agree with this). Maybe they arent "Pontiacs". Heck their oiling system is similar, crank spacing I think is pretty close.Look at the heads,fasteners etc etc on an L1 and it isn't there to be a SBC.

My 2004 GTO corners as good as my 78 TA with road race slicks, I like them both.It doesn't have the scream of a classic Pontiac motor but its faster than my 81 TA with a stock type 400, and feels like a flatter torque curve.Probably brake better than the second gen rear disc set up.

Improvements to the new GTO, well they added 50 hp to the 05s so a good start, added hood scoops- also better. Body shape- yes it could take some other looks. I'd like a different rear spoiler myself like the second Gen Camaros. Maybe some tail lights that set it out some. Gauge package -where is the oil pressure??

pont3 · #**305** 05-03-2005, 07:39 PM

Skip, I hear you man. Fact is, there is probably NOT a bigger fan of vintage Pontiacs than me. I've owned at least 15-20 different Pontiacs over the last twenty something years. But I am a realist. Although I agree with many of the sentiments expressed by the majority here, I purchased mine for several reasons.
1. It was the only affordable V8 powered RWD coupe.
2. As a GTO owner, ANY modern edition was a "must have".
3. To help demonstrate to GM that a market indeed exists for this type of car.
4. The test drive erased any doubt about it.

I feel that even Lutz himself didn't want to rebadge an import with the GTO name, but could't justify to the beancounters a formiddable business case. Therefore, he selected a vehicle that would not embarrass the name, at least performance wise, and used it to test the waters. It has lived up to the standard, and even exceeded the standard in some aspects, but failed in others.

My contention all along was, even if you're biased against the car, support it so that a business case could be made for the continued execution of the plan. Many cars have been produced that didn't fare well initially, but subsequently met customer expectations. Unfortunately, the market for this type of car is small and convincing the beancounters to anty up is difficult. By shunning the car, we effectively illustrate that there is no business case.

I have found that I am perfectly happy with my '04 just the way it is. It COULD have been more aesthetically appealing BUT, I have owned other cars with a LOT of curb appeal but was turned off quickly by the driving experience.

As you have stated, this car does not get the credit it deserves. It will fulfill the void of the last 31 years if people would only allow it to.

Skip Fix · #**306** 05-04-2005, 05:52 AM

MSN.com today has an article on the 400hp club for new cars. The 2005 GTO is the lowest priced in the group!

For the diehards out there, how many LIKE the looks of a 64 GTO compared to a 65 or up? The prices they get don't reflect their preference.Or do we compare the new ones to the 73 "boat" body or the 74 "Nova" for nostalgia?

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**307** 05-07-2005, 01:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr_GTO:

If PONTIAC says it, it doesn't matter what ANYONELSE says.

so even that the only thing pontiac about it is the badges were supposed to overlook that ? cmon who are you tryin to fool ?

2. The LT4/LT1 is a EVOLVED SBC. Meaning it has the same dimensions, interchangable parts, etc that can be shared with a SBC. The LS1 has NONE OF THAT. NONE.

3. Just because the LT1 didn't blow up(and trust me, PLENTY HAVE BLOWN UP) doesn't mean it is a better motor. And chances are that if your friend missed a shift it was more driver ERROR than the engine being faulty and a FYI for those that havne't actually OWNED a LS1 based motor, if you do miss a shift like that, you bend PUSHRODS,not break the entire motor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well his pushrods were more or less curverods. and the holes in the heads were more or less ovals insted of circles. couple of pistons got beat up pretty bad too. yeah it could have been worse but i think its still funny to joke about to this day. he dont on the other hand. weve done worse to the LT1 and it took every bit of it.

Merdin · #**308** 05-10-2005, 03:04 PM

SBC vs. Pontiac motor.... who cares? Why go to all this work to come up with a lame reason to exclude us from the rest of the GTO community? We like our cars. You don't.

No matter what, at the end of the day, my title reads "GTO".

judge_jury_executioner_69 · #**309** 05-10-2005, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Merdin:
SBC vs. Pontiac motor.... who cares? Why go to all this work to come up with a lame reason to exclude us from the rest of the GTO community? We like our cars. You don't.

No matter what, at the end of the day, my title reads "GTO". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

youre wrong i like my car. the new gto performs decent. i just dont understand why people make it out to be something its not.

Merdin · #**310** 05-10-2005, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

youre wrong i like my car. the new gto performs decent. i just dont understand why people make it out to be something its not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you answer any of my questions? I'm really curious why there is such passion to exclude the NewGTOs.

About your statement: What are they trying to make of it?

red70goat · #**311** 05-10-2005, 07:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by judge_jury_executioner_69:

youre wrong i like my car. the new gto performs decent. i just dont understand why people make it out to be something its not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's called denial...this concept of a Monaro as a GTO that most of us somehow just don't "get it"

The Who · #**312** 05-10-2005, 08:19 PM

like the new GTO is hurting GM right now

GM is gonna need a lot more then one car to get back on it's feet.

Mr_GTO · #**313** 05-11-2005, 03:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by red70goat:

It's called denial...this concept of a Monaro as a GTO that most of us somehow just don't "get it"

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why most of GM is down from the previous year but the GTO is up in sales and production has been extened and dealers are asking for more cars.

Yup, some of us just don't get it.

David Jones · #**314** 05-11-2005, 04:17 AM

Records are falling..........

rabon008 · #**315** 05-11-2005, 05:56 AM

Yep, every track record that stock GTOs ever had. Good point, David.

Merdin · #**316** 05-11-2005, 05:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by red70goat:

It's called denial...this concept of a Monaro as a GTO that most of us somehow just don't "get it" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, can I assume that you hate the 74 GTO's as well. After all.. they were a re-badged Chevy.

Still, my question goes unanswered: Why do you care? Why do you go to so much trouble to tell us you don't like the car? Do you do this in real-life? Stopping people in the parking lot of the grocery store to tell them how much you hate their car and why it's not "worthy" of your approval?

David Jones · #**317** 05-11-2005, 06:19 AM

As usual. You read something into a reply that wasn't there. Let me explain it to you like a child. SALES RECORDS.

red70goat · #**318** 05-11-2005, 08:39 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheWho:
like the new GTO is hurting GM right now

QUOTE]

The article is Business Week was not about the GTO. The cover depicting a GTO was in reference to GMs failed attempt to connect with their consumer base with the result of sales being below expectations.

red70goat · #**319** 05-11-2005, 08:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Merdin:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by red70goat:

It's called denial...this concept of a Monaro as a GTO that most of us somehow just don't "get it" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, can I assume that you hate the 74 GTO's as well. After all.. they were a re-badged Chevy.
QUOTE]

Well...it was actually an option on the Ventura which I guess could be argued that was actually a Nova. That did wonders for the cars image. Apparently GM didn't learn any lessons from that. It would appear history is repeating itself. I don't hate the car or the people that buy it. I just enjoy picking on the GM Monaro Glee Club Elite that think they are better than everybody else because they apparently "get something" that those who dislike what GM did to the GTO don't.

Merdin · #**320** 05-11-2005, 09:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by red70goat:
Well...it was actually an option on the Ventura which I guess could be argued that was actually a Nova. That did wonders for the cars image. Apparently GM didn't learn any lessons from that. It would appear history is repeating itself. I don't hate the car or the people that buy it. I just enjoy picking on the GM Monaro Glee Club Elite that think they are better than everybody else because they apparently "get something" that those who dislike what GM did to the GTO don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now there's a response I can understand. I didn't realize that there was a group of us "newbies" that were taking an elitist approach. I, for one, like my '04 despite it's styling shortcomings. But it never occured to me that it was "superior" to the classic goats. To me, it's a pointless effort to try and compare the two. Not only are they so completely different that comparisons are impossible, but in the end.... what would be the point?
Thanks for the response.