[Steve Hoog]

Gary is probably 45 going on 75, he's an old married fart that can't remember what his cars look like. It's a shame. But I would love to run some of his M/T stuff.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Also, my designed bottom ends are stronger than the current aftermarket choices. Contrary to your alledged 'first hand information' you mentioned in the rudy thread. My bottom end girdles have never broken or even been damaged for that matter. I will say here, whoever told you that is a liar is dishonest and does not know what he is talking about. That person is not credible.
Steve

I'll take your word on that, saying the bottom end girdle did "not" break. It very well could have been a misconception that was passed on to me. They saw you make a run and shut down, and emailed me later saying you "broke that block girdle". I had been posting pics of your block support on another site, praising it, prior to that. Perhaps it was just to razz. The block girdle is an ingenius design, looking at the pics- and I was actually impressed by it.

I picked up a 370 Pontiac 1958 short block in the junkyard here for $45- and noticed it has a strengthening rib in the bottom end down one side of the oil pan rail, like a RA V block but not quite as big- also the bores are a bit thicker- what appeals is the small main journal forged steel crank, and short 3.56" stroke.

[tom s]

Charlie,that is the crank I used and will use for my RA V short deck motors.The one in my T/A was cut to 2 1/2 mains and the stroke and rod size left the same.On my 366 motor we will cut the mains to fit but will also cut and offset the rods to either 1.88 or 2in size with the stroke still to be determined.The 57-58 blocks use 2 3/4 mains.Tom

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

Iron blocks are not practical with nitro racing. As unforgiveable as nitro is, you need to be able to have a block that can be repaired if damaged. Steve

ps- I was thinking a block that can take 2500 HP and not break, wouldn't have to be welded/repaired in the first place- and save you lots of hassle.

Good luck with your projects. Even with the block girdle, I seriously doubt the original blocks will be as strong as an IA-2 or MR-1, due to the lifter bore area being weaker on the Pontiac factory unit.

If you are willing to truss up an original iron block, it seems you could also run an aftermarket IA-2 or MR-1.

Keep in mind, Butler is releasing an aftermarket aluminum block. Another option.

[David Holmberg]

Charlie, the block might not break, but the rods and pistons will, and "window" the block.

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by tom s

Charlie,what is long coin to you?$5000-7000-10000?I will see Steve tomorrow.Money talks and BS walks!Tom

Tom- get a price on a pair of heads if you can.

[tom s]

Charlie,the alu blocks are out.Ric Johnson has two in his shop right now being built for customers.Tom

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by David Holmberg

Charlie, the block might not break, but the rods and pistons will, and "window" the block.

Dave- he was already running an iron Pontiac factory block to begin with. How bad could an IA be ??

The idea is, don't window it in the first place.

If this dragster is going to window the block on a regular basis, how practical is it- and how many actual runs will it ever make ? With aluminum or iron blocks ? Time for a reality check...

At that point, it should be detuned so it is reliable.

Now you know where the steel intake and one Dominator idea comes in, with M/T Hemi heads. Guess what- no more windowing blocks.

Who wants to grenade their nitro M/T Hemi motor on a regular basis ? It's not like there's a lot of those around- and sooner of later, blocks and heads get ruined- permanently- if it keeps getting scattered on a regular basis.

[tom s]

Charlie,he has no interest in selling any at this time.I offered $5000 then $7000 and he told me no price at this time.Tom

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by theoldone

... a 370 Pontiac 1958 ... what appeals is the small main journal forged steel crank, and short 3.56" stroke.

Welcome to the Pontiac V8 world! A little belated, from those of us whom they've appealed to since '58.

Tom S- Never thought I'd be correcting you- the '57-'58 mains are 2 5/8" diameter.

[mechanickeith]

Hey Jack!! I still want that extra head for my superduty Tempest 4 banger!!!

[Jack Gifford]

Keith- Did you see the $5-7K numbers above? Ha! Ha!
Back to the real world... still not really looking to sell it, but who knows....

[Sunshine State Shaker]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Keith- Did you see the $5-7K numbers above? Ha! Ha!
Back to the real world...

Yeah.

At those prices, I'd be looking at BAE or Veney stuff.

[tom s]

Jack,really never meas. one myself,for some reason thought it was 2 3/4!I just took it to Velasco and had him cut it to fit.Tom

[Steve Hoog]

Tom S

For that mistake you are fined to send me two RAV heads, do you need my shipping address?

[misterp266]

Originally Posted by theoldone

The idea is, don't window it in the first place.

If this dragster is going to window the block on a regular basis, how practical is it- and how many actual runs will it ever make ? With aluminum or iron blocks ? Time for a reality check...

At that point, it should be detuned so it is reliable.

The idea is to go as fast as you can on nitro. Detune a nitro motor?
Why run nitro in the first place? Some people run on the ragged edge. Some people don't.
I don't think Steve wants to run sevens. If you're on the edge, sh!t happens. No matter how stong your block is! I applaud his innovation. There aren't many out there that can think outside the box.

Would you pay 10k for a set? Just wondering......

[Steve Barcak]

David and Mr P seem to understand or get the 'gist' of nitro racing.
No you never 'want' to break a block but with nitro racing, it happens. There is and will be attrition. Even the multi million dollar a year pro teams with all the experience and $$ imaginable still blow stuff up. It happens when you are on the edge. It doesn;t mean they don;t know what they are doing.
You can;t build a conservative blown nitro motor and be competitive.
on blocks, it is wiser to risk inexpensive and available iron blocks which are expendable (until the alum ones are ready) than to risk 3 thousand dollar iron blocks. There is no advantage for me to running an all pontiac or MR block in blown nitro racing. Only the disadvantage of the intial cost. I can;t use the bigger bore those 2 offer unless I want to add weight and reduce my boost). Again- I am in a class, I have to run under rules/restrictions. My car is not a blank sheet of paper to take a Pontiac as fast as possible like most of the other fast Pontiacs are. Think about it- what real class could one of the other fast Pontiacs run in and be legal for the class and competitive? The alum block that is out is somewhat better as it is repairable. Still I have already sunk a ton into the factory V block and already bought my block forgings to carve out .
Again, my blocks are Forgings not castings. the aftermarket blocks are castings. If you cannot visualize the difference, think of the difference of a cast piston versus a forged piston. The blocks are the same difference. No one besides me that I know of have built or is building a forged billet blocks.
the early blocks are so sweet and expendable if needed. Believe it or not, my lower billet girdle actually stregthens the lifter area too! Yup. If you understand metalurgy and think of the pressures and stresses put on a block you can see how it supports the whole block, not just the bottom end. I use a lifter brace too for extra strength and it also has been used on more than one block. If you saw the damage to the motor when the ex rocker failed- it split/broke the block and both heads at opposite corners!
Pretty severe explosion I'd say. Still, the crank, 7 of the rods, all bearings, all of the support/girdle and all the pistons were reused in another early block. If that would have happened with an IA I would have been out another 3 grand, instead it cost me a few hundred to tp prep and remachine another early block and get it back in the car.
On 370s- I think they have great potential for many applications. Especially classes with rules ( inches to weight). They can usually go .125" over to 4.18+. I don;t know how good those crank forgings are for a nitro application. I use the best I can buy because me or my driver has to sit behind it and straddle it and that is why I like Crower stuff.
the 370 crank is probably good for any gas or alky deal. What about "H" type bearings? I doubt you can get them. Maybe another brand engine has similar dimensions and could be used.
All those early engines have a disired strengthening rib and thick bulkheads. A bellhousing adaptor is not a big deal to fabricate either. Remember, there are no side mounts on a 370, that started in 59 ( 389).
Good thread although we did get sidetracked.
Also, for the record, we all know it is easy to misinterpet someones post. I am not knocking any of the aftermarket Pontiac blocks. Hardly, I am sure they are very good pieces. I am just saying they are not the best choice for blown nitro competition. Maybe the alum one could do if you bought 2 or 3 of them. I am sure they were not intended for blown nitro competition and they certainly are not marketed as such. I am not aware of anyone besides me who is trying to make a Pontiac competitive in a blown, high percentage nitromethane class. Many nitro guys told my that running nitro is a sickness. I always took that as comical or in jest. Now I am not so sure, it is addicting. Once you try this stuff, you do not want to look back.
I am building a cooling system for the fueler to cool the heads and we should be able to take her out again to burn some of the 'good stuff' in a week or twol Maybe we'll make some progress. I would like to run in at the finals ina few weeks but time it tight.
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[Jack Gifford]

Barcak- Good luck with the fueler!

You said a couple days ago that nobody had ever tried to run a blown Pontiac on high-percentage nitro. Although Mickey used fuel in a whole slew of machines, I think you're right about the percentage- offhand, I don't recall reading about any more than maybe 25%? But what about Eddie Hill's pair of blown Pontiacs? I only saw him run gas at the Nationals during the fuel-ban ('61-'63), but seems like he ran fuel meets. Unfortunately, I'm on the other coast and didn't witness much of the early fuel action. Is Eddie still kickin'?

What about Beswick's Pontiac funny cars?

Believe me, I'm not taking issue with what you said- merely a mental exercise in trying to recall fuel Pontiacs!

[Steve Barcak]

Tracktor Jack-
Maybe others did, if so, I stand corrected. I am not aware of those who did ( if they did). Eddie Hill is still alive as best I know. I don't know what percentage he ran. Beswick has told me 35% tops., Gay? I don;t know. Ivo and Alexander also ran the Shudderbug on fuel and on gas. not sure of their percentage either. To me anything above 85% is high percentage. 60%-80% is medium.
the lowest we run is 90% we have gone as high a 96%. There are no percentage restrictions in Nostalgia Top Fuel. The big boys have to run 85% now. too bad. The cackle of the modern cars has diminished. They still go faster all the time though.
What did you think of the T&D set up? you never commented, you had asked me to post it.......
Steve Barcak www.pontiacheaven.org

[misterp266]

Here's a pic of Alexanders car, restored.