Ugly, bland and over priced.

[Sirrotica]

I was just out of high school in 1970 and couldn't swing a new GTO. I've had probably 10 used examples through the years and this I figured was my one and only chance to own a brand new GTO and even though I had never bought a brand new car til then. I found a good deal on a 2005 and purchased it and have not regretted my one and only chance to own a new one. I still would love to have another 65 GTO as that was my first GTO I owned, and I also owned 2 other 65s after the first one, and 5 other years besides 65 also. It'd be nice to have bookends 65 and 05 40 years apart and both yellow examples. Maybe someday I will, til then I have a 2 455 T/As and the GP Winston Cup street driven clone with a 455 I'm working on. Funny thing is the 73 and 74 were the bastard GTOs that were looked down upon til the 21st century cars came out now these are the red headed step children of GTOs. Things change but somehow there's always gonna be the some bastard GTO that isn't really a GTO out there. Human nature I guess.

[chicagoland]

Some older car fans only like cars that remind them of thier HS or 19-23 y/o days. Also they have bought into GM sale of Pontiac's 60's image, and think Ponitac was separate car company, even though it was just a model of Oakland, and from 1926-1956 it just 'an old ladies car'. Poncho always shared platforms/bodyshells with Chevy. But some think they compete with each other. [Long term it hurt GM badly]

Also, they dont like emission controls, electronics, and FI. And they miss the annual styling changes for trivia contests.

I like old and new cars, and new GTO didnt set US on fire from many other market forces, not just the looks.

New GTO fans, stick to your guns and dont even bother with old goaters' comments.

[Sirrotica]

I believe your comment about old ladies cars was just a hair off. Semon E. (Bunkie) Knudsens comment in 1956 was when he took the reins at Pontiac, "I can sell a young mans car to an old man, but I can never sell an old mans car to a young man" Thank the Pontiac gods that he, John DeLorean and Pete Estes were able to pull it off and he had such remarkable foresite to take Pontiac to 3rd in sales with his innovative ideas. It's too bad he's not around now to take the reins again and make Pontiac back in to it's former glorius self. Bob Lutz isn't the man that Knudsen was and he is faced with the same basic problem. Take a division that has lost it's identity back to the top of it's game.

You also mention not to pay any heed to the old GTO guys running down the 21st century GTO. I don't, and I know that their stubborn attitude is only their loss. Someday they'll realize what a car the new GTO is and that for their shortsitedness have missed a car that was built on the traditions of the original GTO. And yes Holden is a part of GM like it or not. They act like Holden is a part of Ford or Chrysler, or maybe Toyota or Honda. If memory serves me I believe the GTO platform (A body) was also shared with every division of GM but Cadillac. Isn't that what they're doing now is sharing a common platform with another GM division? Funny how that happens......................and people have selective memories when it comes to the facts.

[87LC2]

Took my 2006 GTO to the track, my first time on a drag strip. Ran a 12.732 @ 109.49 with only a CAI, cat-back and a tune on the stock 235/40R18's.

I think that says it all.

/thread

[6806goats]

Hey that's some pretty darn numbers there. Bet you had a blast too.

Guess ours seem to be the last GTO's even if they were made in Australia. And trust me, that part doesn't bother me a bit. Actually if GMNA would have followed GM Holden in production methods I think GM would have sold a lot more cars/trucks. The new Camaro is ok but I don't like the interior in design or quality of plastics. Thought they'd learn but I guess not. Hope the aftermarket can correct that aspect also.

[PontGuy]

I just recently geared up to do some serious work to my 69 Lemans vert so pretty new to this forum and just found this post. Couldn't resist throwing my nickel in!

I've messed around with Pontiacs for a long time now, starting with a 71 Lemans that my then future-wife bought in the late 70's. I am not as serious as a bunch of the guys here- but along the way put together a "restored" 67 FB that was strong enough to shatter the pinion yoke at the strip, won dirt track races using A-bodies and Pont engines (back when they were still considered throw-aways), and managed to gather quite an assortment of Pontiac parts over the years.

I've been driving an 06 GTO for 3+ years now and honestly its turned into my all-time "favorite". The old cars were head-turners, even more so today. And there is a soft place in my heart for Pont engines. But the "new GTO" is so comfortable, so drivable, and so quick even in stock form that its hard not to like once you get behind the wheel. So its an Australian car with a "Chevy" engine, who cares? As for the GTO badge, maybe its misplaced given the shape and look of the car- but now it looks like the 06 will be the last the last true (2 door) Pont musclecar ever to sit on a dealer's lot, so now the name somehow seems fitting..

As for Mustangs, I've owned at least a dozen Ford cars and trucks over the years and had to replace the transmission in EVERY ONE OF THEM, starting with a 68 LTD and ending with a late 90's Windstar. That may be some sort of record, but I will never own another Ford. Oh, and in three years I have never been challenged on the street by a Mustang owner. Either they don't recognize the car (very few of them around here) or are intimidated by the 6.0 engine. Probably a bit of both. But that's fine with me- my street racing days are long over and I don't need to be tempted.

So I am going to continue to drive the (*&@ out of my 06 GTO and love every minute of it, and put my 69 455 powered red-on-red 'vert back into shape and enjoy it on the weekends. The two of them really look good together sitting side-by-side in the garage!

... gotta go and get back to work on my trunk floor..

Walt

[6806goats]

Great Post Walt. Just as a friendly jab and this is directed more at the companies who reported the articles. I guess you didn't check out the articles in Car and Driver or Consumer report before you bought such a worthless car. j/k Slays me that car and driver wrote the article where the Mustang was better than the GTO. Those "gotta have it points" are worth their weight in gold. NOT!!! Had to make sure the Mustang won so they awarded 25 points which put the Mustang over by one point. We know the score but I wonder how many people avoided the car because of that article. Then there's consumer reports. While they have several reds, there were a few blacks or zero's for the 2006 but much better than some others I've seen. So I guess that since it wasn't Japanese they had to put it on the cars to avoid list. Bad enough we catch flack from other inputs but now we have someone who reports on cars telling potential customers not to buy. WTF. Just had to get that off my chest.

I haven't started searching for another engine for my 68 yet but how hard is it to find a core 455 or 400? I have water in my oil and just have never had time to tear it down since I bought it that way back in 1990. Almost 20 yrs and I'm still traveling the globe. Gotta stop someday I guess. Take care and enjoy. Wayne

[PontGuy]

Yeah I saw the article. Never did understand what "gotta have it points" meant. I think the real issue was that it was a re-badged Monaro which didn't look anything like the old GTO and it wasn't styled for the US mass-market. But I couldn't see that as a reason not to buy one. I was much more interested in the out of the box performance and comfort factors than the shape of the rear 1/4's. When they put the LS2 in it I was sold.

Finding an engine core is not like the old days when you just made a few local calls, but they are still around. I imagine it could be tough if you are looking for a particular year/code. If I had an original block in a GTO I would tear it down first to see if it could be rebuilt before going shopping for a new one. One thing good about my LeMans vert is that numbers-matching really doesn't change the value much, so I feel free to be a bit creative.

Walt

[RR67GTO]

Greetings, I'm Mike, and I own one 67 GTO, that's been a twelve year project. Because of things beyond my control. Now, in twelve years of worrying about the car, and getting it done. The stress with shoddy shops who worked on or even messed up the car, I am so close to being done, I'm down to taking the engine apart that was rebuilt but never broken in back when it was rebuilt. Which, was soon after the project started.

Since that time, I have watched and wanted some nice later Pontiac's. The WS6 Firebird, the GP, and a few other ones. However, my reason for not buying one was I was worried that because of the love / hate relationship I have with my 67 GTO. I'd decide to sell it off, and just enjoy my newer Pontiac.

Well, now the car is close to being done, and there are the new GTO's on the market. WS6 Birds are out there, and then to add a real teaser Pontiac built a beautiful new G8 And, although I wish it had been a two door, but then again at 51 I see the up side of it.

So, what now? I hate to even think about it, but after having just one chance to drive an 05 GTO for about five miles, I'm considering if I'd rather have a car that has caused so much stress, and one I can't even remember what it was like driving? Or a fresh new start in this hobby? Meaning a new Pontiac.

You see, two short months after buying it I took it to a decent (until I cam along) Pontiac club member to have the brakes upgraded to disc. You can get an idea of the rest.

But I also have to consider some very fine people who have been a huge help keeping my interest in the old car. Helping with locating parts the shop stole from me, finding things I lost after years of storing them and moving. Keeping me from selling the car when I became very ill, and was not expected to get better. It's more then just me, and my older car in other words.

What about owning both? Something else I have considered a great deal. And, financially, if I was careful and did a lot of looking I could swing it without hurting myself. However, space is a problem. I simply don't have or can I make the extra space, to keep two cars in the manner they need to be kept. I personally don't want even a new car in an open car port. Yet, my late EB Ford exploder, sits out in the weather in the drive way and that's fine. But, unless I can come up with a reasonable way to own and keep both a later Pontiac, as well as the older one. I just look and see some nice cars, I'd be interested in pas by.

And I fully understand, that only so many of these cars were made, and the longer I wait the more miles they will have. And the fewer that will be out there for sell.

So, I guess why I decided to post this was so you could see someone who likes both kinds of GTOs, but some times life just wont allow you that little bit of extra you need to have both things you want.

So, I'll just keep watching both older and newer cars, and be thankful that I have some very wonderful friends, a home I'm not going to lose to the bank, a second chance at life, to make up for some of the short comings I may have done in the past. And, I'll dream like I have most my life. Dream of things I want, places I'd like to see, and people I'd like to meet. Knowing that when my number does come up for real. I'll leave this world with wanting so much I've never had. But, that's also a nice thing, because it means I still had the desire to want and enjoy. Rather than checking out bored because I had everything and did everything I wanted, leaving me with nothing left to dream about.

So, the next time some guy with an old car shows his intolerance of the new Pontiac's. Just remember, one person or even a group of people don't speak for everyone. We as humans, are given a choice of free will. As well as the ability to do right or wrong. And so as far as I'm concerned, it's like the women in my life. I love my Grandmother very much, just as I love my Daughter, who causes me both great joy, as well as a lot of worry. I know Grandma is slower and not so sharp as she once was, but she still seems to start each day. And my youngest of two daughters, starts right up each day, but she also tends to be much more expensive to keep up. And when it comes to seeing how she works, and doing some minor tuning myself? Forget it, she has to have a pro do that for her because I simply look at her and I'm dumbfounded at what makes her work. Grandma on the other hand is simple. A few flowers, lunch once in a while, and time spent listening to the sound in her voice when she recalls people places and things. And, then she's up and running as good as new, and I was able to be the one at that time who got her running fine again.

Good day friends. And, enjoy what you have. And, be proud of yourself.

Mike in Oregon

[DARKITEC]

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body

Classic line from another forum where "muscle car" people hang out... Mustang owner and proud of it: "I hate the new GTO. Those are the ugliest tail lights and exhaust tips I've ever seen!"

My response: "Glad to know, after 35 years, some things never change. Like the view Mustang owners get of GTO..." He never responded.

Now that the car has been out there a while, and beat up on ALL its competition at the tracks, GTO has left its mark. No more nay-sayers regarding performance and whether or not it holds up the reputaion GTO earned.

I'm proud to say I am one of the "die hards" that LOVE old GTOs, yet embrace the new one. GTO was never a "Hey! Look at me!" car. The mystique built it up over the years, but it was always aimed at the DRIVER and how the car felt and drove. The view of the dash and over the hood is MUCH more important than looking at it from the window in the resturaunt... Most of the negative stuff I've read or heard has come from the "band wagoneers" that bought older GTOs because they were "cool cars" or an investment. Not the guys that bought them to drive! Those are the real GTO guys.

IMO

Jim

You must have an 05 or 06. I've never seen the hood on my 04 There's dash then road

[Goathead]

I guess the Old School guys were right since the car is gone now.....

[Sirrotica]

The whole company is gone now.....news flash duh

[Region Warrior]

Made it page 5 before responding.
Its ***** envy.
The old die hard GTO guys feel the same way about 1st gen FB's even though the 400's used a GTO engine and trans.
They handled better and where faster once you removed the throttle limiter.
Add a dual exhuast and some traction. It was no contest.
They just keep say'n it's a pony car, not a muscle car.
Must be a midsize with a big engine.
Funny, you could order GTO's with a 2bl carb.
To me no car with a 2bl or 6 cly is a muscle car. Well maybe with an OHV6.

[Goathead]

The car was gone before the company, the car was fast, and ugly, so it did not sell. I like new muscle as well as old, but putting GTO badges on a plain Jane Australian car with very few mods was a bad idea.

[Sirrotica]

Like putting GTO badges and a big motor and a few mods on a plain Jane 64 Tempest in a body shared by 4 other GM divisions??????

You don't like the looks of the GTO and that's all you have to support your point?

Let's speak facts here and not just opinions. Pontiac had started their death knell years before the new GTO was ever thought of and the sales of those 40,000 GTOs over 04-06 didn't hurt Pontiac, if anything it strung them along a little longer. Pontiac lost their identity by the mismanagement of the company years before and it never changed except for a bright spot here and there, of which the 04-06 GTO was one of, like it or not. Also if you research it the new GTO sold 40,000 cars through those 3 years that otherwise would have went to other manufacturers instead. It never hurt Pontiac at all, in fact it brought much needed showroom traffic to their dealers which did nothing but help it's lost image.

Danny if you do some research the 64 GTO was scheduled for a 1 year run of 5,000 cars. GM management got orders for 37,000, mustang sales statistics for 1964 were 417,000. The new retro mustang sold 150,000 cars in it's first year compared to GTOs just under 16,000 cars in it's first year, that's less 10 to 1 compared to 1964 sales of more than 10 to 1. The new GTO and the new mustang are always compared when the GTO is cited as a sales flop, although ratio wise its better than the original car was in 1964 compared to the mustang.........Hmmmmmmmmmm I bet you didn't see that fact coming. Pontiac continued into 1965 with an option that no one had tried yet (Big motor in intermediate car with a few mods with fake scoops GTO emblems and NO COMPETITORS YET).

The 04 GTO was rushed into production in 18 months and yes, there were concessions made to get it to market that fast. 18 months is unheard of nowadays to bring a car to market and just short of a miracle it was pulled off in time for the 40th anniversary of the original GTO. I dare say the redesigned mustang or anything else, were being planned long before the GTO ever had a thought given to it. It took GM 5+ years to bring the current abortion called the camaro to market and a p!ss poor attempt in my opinion too. After 5+ years of waiting and they send that out???????......... You wanna talk ugly I wouldn't go across the street for a new camaro if they were giving them away. I'll take my 05 GTO over the butt ugly camaro any day of the week and twice on Sunday, but styling is subjective we all know that and yes that is only my opinion, not to be confused with the facts listed in my response here..............

The 21 st century GTO sold over 80% of the cars available for the predetermined 3 year run. Only a maximum of 18,000 cars per year were available for the 3 year run. Not to for mention the fact that GM already knew the Holden design wouldn't pass crash tests in the year 2007 before the car was ever put into production. Also the contract between GM and their union predetermined production to less than 18,000 units way before the first GTO was ever built. Like it or not, Holden is a division of GM in the global economy of today. Holden shared the Monaro body with Pontiac and the derivitives from Holden are shared currently by Cadillac and, oh yea the 2010 Camaro architecture is also taken from a Holden developed chassis design too.

Do you see any parallels here? GM shares a intermediate body with Holden and Pontiac same as Buick Chevy Olds and Pontiac did in 1964. A predetermined amount of cars will be built and of course the big engine in a intermediate body formula too. Mustang outsells GTO in 1964 over 10 to 1 and less than 10 to 1 in 04.

The 3 year 21st century GTO outsold the last 4 years of "Real GTO" production in the states 1971-1974 and nearly half of 1970 sales so if you wanna compare apple to apples the car sales performed much better than your "Real GTO" did in it's last 4 1/2 years when it did have competitors in the same marketplace.

If you read my earlier posts, I have owned at least 10 examples of your "Real GTO" in my lifetime and the 05 does what each one of them did but much better than the original cars did. But that's not surprising given the advances in technology in 40 years. I can throw my 05 into a corner just like I can my Trans Ams and by previously owning 3 65 GTOs I know what will happen to a 65 if I threw it into a corner at that same speed because when I was younger I tried it and know what the end result is. Also the straightline performance is much better too, not to mention the interiors aren't even comparable.

Oh yeah, Holden was making a Monaro GTO before they ever made the Pontiac GTO. The car was limited production car from day one and was never meant to be a sales runaway or to outsell the mustang. Think about this, even in it's heydey the GTO sales never even came close to mustang sales nor did that scenario change in 2004-06, just the facts here and leave your emotions and opinions at the door. I would suggest some reading material here, GLORY YEARS by Jim Wangers to substantiate the facts I have listed.

I would like nothing better than to once again own a 65 GTO and maybe sometime I will again, but to say it was better than my 05 is a fallacy and there is nothing to support it as a fact.

[Goathead]

My Point?

Here are my facts:

GTO Sales / Old vs New


1964 32,450
1965 75,352
1966 96,946
1967 81,722
1968 87,684
1969 72,287
1970 40,149

*** 40,745 Entire sales for three year run from 2004 through 2006

Even the '70 GTO sold virtually the same number of cars as the entire 3 year production figures of the 2004-2006 GTO.


Look, the newer version of the Legendary GTO was not a bad car, but it was in no way shape or form up to the task of pleasing the masses. That's my point, and. IMO, cosmetics had a lot to do with those numbers.

[71 T/A]

I own a 69 GTO and it's a great car. Regarding the 2004-2006 GTO, I think they are good cars that were priced a bit too high. Also, the car's overall shape and rear end design could have been better, but the car looks good from the front. The interior is outstanding and is one of the car's best features. I would say if you could buy a newer GTO at a good price to buy it and drive it just like you would any other car that's a few years old. Do not buy one as an investment.

[Sirrotica]

The figures don't lie, the GTO was never remotely close to outselling the mustang as it is so many times compared to in the modern day, or back in the sixties, that's apples and oranges. But the ratio was better in 2004 than it was in 64 that's the truth.

Also it was a LIMITED PRODUCTION car before the first one was made, never in anyones mind was it made to outsell anything. With a maximum of only 18,000 cars per year available how could it outsell any year GTO you've listed, it however did outsell all years you didn't list by a good margin. It was never possible now then or ever. I can't take a 5 gallon bucket and fill a 10 gallon container with it either.

It was to celebrate the 40th anniversary and bring much needed traffic into the Pontiac dealers showrooms and if it sold well that was a bonus for Pontiac, Holden and GM. The small amount of money spent on the car and advertising would never equate to a great selling LIMITED PRODUCTION model. Lutz said at one time it was a car to attract BMW owners, that tells you right there they never expected to outsell anything in the class. Kind of a stupid blunder in marketing as I doubt they ever got even 1 BMW owner to buy a Pontiac GTO, they also alienated the Pontiac GTO owners with that comment at the same time.

The only US made car that is in the same league is the hemi charger and I doubt I'd trade my 2 door GTO for a 4 door charger on looks or performance. That is the only rear wheel drive muscle car that was being made at the time and although I don't have production figures it's doubtful it outsold the GTO in 2004-06. I see less of those on the roads than I do GTOs, that is an apples to apples comparison. I don't see an taxi cab look alike as a collectable car in the future either.

Funny thing is when I owned all my other GTOs in the 60s and 70s we never thought of them as collectibles or gaining value in the next 40 years, they were transportation and entertainment for us as young adults. I had 3 65s one totaled one junked and one turned into a dirt track car. 2 67s one junked and one made into a dirt track car. 2 68s bought for parts and junked, the other turned into a dirt track car, 1 69 that I sold. I had a 70 Judge that got totaled but was resurrected and I'm meeting the current owner this weekend to see it and drive it. I even owned a 73 455 GTO that was totaled when I bought it and we resurrected it and I sold it (these and 74s used to be the redheaded stepchildren of GTOs before the 21st century cars came along).

Maybe my 05 will never be collectible but I bought it to drive, same as I did my other GTOs and if it becomes collectible it does. I do know it's not going anywhere in the future but in my driveway, and it's the only GTO, or for that matter any car I ever purchased new and I will cherrish it and drive it as it was meant to be enjoyed, no matter what the other GTO owners say.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you don't like the looks of my car fine, but why is there a need to come on this forum for 04-06 owners and slam the car as has been done constantly since this forum has been created on Performance Years. I really wish they'd restrict the negativity in this forum same as they have in the classified sections, nothing constructive to say, don't say anything. You hate the car and it's looks, why are you here? I don't go to dodge charger forums or camaro forums and voice my opinions about their cars. Go over to LS1GTO.com and see how long they tolerate you there.

[Goathead]

Go over to LS1GTO.com and see how long they tolerate you there.

I'm a Pontiac guy, why go to a Chevy site for discussion of a Pontiac? Oh! Never mind, those things were more chevy than Pontiac, I see your point.......

[Sirrotica]

I think Mike Wachter has it closest when he said "Its ***** envy"

Don't you have something to go fix on that "real GTO"???

With all the comedians that are out of work and your trying to be one too???

Isn't there an Aztek forum you should be at???.....................