["QUICK-SILVER"]

Scott,
The pics pretty much look like any other car that melted fuse links. Just looking I'd say you'll want to add a junction block to get rid of all the clutter on the back of the alternator, but that can wait for now.
The dead battery, no start situation that happened, is all the more reason to check out the burn area at the tube. Along that same line of thinking, did you try to crank it when the wires smoked under the dash? If the purpe wire is shorted out at the tube, wires could've smoked behind the switch while trying to crank it.

The melted fuse holder to the fan obviously overheated. You didn't say if the fuse was blown or not.

The fuse condition and the key on smoke (crank or not) is just a couple of more pieces of the puzzle that'll help trying to figure out what happened or what's going on.

There's more but that's enough for now. Just trying to narrow down possibillities.

Clay

[jetallman]

This is a reminder to change all wiring when restoring a car its well worth the money to do in advance

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by jetallman

This is a reminder to change all wiring when restoring a car its well worth the money to do in advance

This is brand new M&H wiring, everything is new on this car. From what I'm hearing, new isn't the real issue, it's how it's installed, that's what really counts.

Scott

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Scott,
The pics pretty much look like any other car that melted fuse links. Just looking I'd say you'll want to add a junction block to get rid of all the clutter on the back of the alternator, but that can wait for now.
The dead battery, no start situation that happened, is all the more reason to check out the burn area at the tube. Along that same line of thinking, did you try to crank it when the wires smoked under the dash? If the purpe wire is shorted out at the tube, wires could've smoked behind the switch while trying to crank it.

The melted fuse holder to the fan obviously overheated. You didn't say if the fuse was blown or not.

The fuse condition and the key on smoke (crank or not) is just a couple of more pieces of the puzzle that'll help trying to figure out what happened or what's going on.

There's more but that's enough for now. Just trying to narrow down possibillities.

Clay

Clay,
The electric fan waterproof fuse holder did burn 1 week earlier, but the fuse didn't blow. It did fall apart in my hands when I took the holder apart, but the fuse didn't blow. I replaced it with a metal 40 fuse for the power seat that I never installed, was this bad?

As for the key position, when I jumped the wires(10 guage wire), no smoke until I turned the key, I'm not sure, but I dont think the car ever cranked either, but I may have never actually turned the key that far, the second I saw smoke I turned the key off and disconnected the battery.
Come to think of it, that was the difference between the problem Saturday and the problem Sunday. On Saturday, I lost ALL power inside the drivers compartment. Once I found the issue and temporaly made a new fusable link, it started and I made it home. On Sunday, I installed a new, correct 16guage link and drove for about 30 minutes, and when it died later in the day, same thing, all power died to the drivers compartment, I installed another spare fusable link, got drivers compartment power but no cranking, when I tried to start it, it smoked like mad where the link was, that's when I tried the 10 guage wire, dumb, huh?
Is that the missing piece to the puzzle Clay? Wht would a starter wire burn up my electric fan fuse on the other side of the enging compartment?

Also, where do I get a good junction block and how to make it look blend in, if possible? Maybe one for the convertable?

Thanks,
Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Scott,
The starter wire has nothing to do with the fan fuse. There was some arcing going on in the fuse holder that caused it to overheat and burn up. The fuse NOT blowing, tells me nothing is wrong with the fan, just had a bad fuse holder.

I suspect wires are shorted out at the tube going down to the starter, and that's what started blowing fuse links. I'm guessing the only wire that's shorted to ground and stuck is the purple solenoid engage wire. That was at least to start with. Others may be melted together now.

You've got to get those wires (tube area) checked out before we go much further. It's definitely possible now that there's some more wire damage behind the switch inside. That would be from the 10 guage experiment, but don't worry about it for now though.

Pics look like some of the wires on the back of the alternator may have crimp on terminal ends. That will all need to be done right and won't be a problem, or can be took care of, when you add a junction block. Convertible top piece might work, but something heavy duty would be better. I'll check into that.

Enough for now
I do have more thoughts on this and will probably have more questions.
I suspect the wire from battery to alternator may have a poor connection.
Test/check out those wires at the tube.
Clay

[ScottMDGTO]

Clay,
What size wire is the purple one? I have looked on the scematics but can't figure it out, and since I'm going to need to do some replacing, I want to buy it this week if possible. Summitt has a junction box from Casper Electronics, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEI-103004/ Is this what you would recommend?
Also, painless wiring has some "extreme condition" bulk wire, is this worth the extra investment? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRF-70700/
I don't mind spending a few extra bucks to make sure I don't have this problem again.
Is there something wrong with the crimp ends on the alernator wires or do you recommend something else? That was what M&H did, this is where the fusble link connects everything, if we're talking about the same thing.

Thanks,
Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Scott,
GM used 12 & 14 guage wire for the starter solenoid over the years. On most cars that had hot start problems, you usually found 14 guage purple going to the solenoid. They even used different sizes on the same car; like 14 from ignition switch to safety switch and then 12 from safety switch to firewall bulkhead connector. Then seems like what ever they had the most of went from outside bulkhead to solenoid.

Bigger would be better under the hood, for the simple reason that the hotter wires get the more resistance they have. So to me if all of it was 10 or 12 it would be that much better. There's not really much sense though in going bigger than the battery feed wire to the ignition switch. Other than the heat factor from running close to exhaust.

I was thinking about something a little different for the junction block. I didn't see the stud size on the one from Casper, and don't now how many wires it will hold and still be able to shut the lid. Just a black block with a stud would be fine for me. Something you would see under the hood of tow trucks, ambulances, and diesel trucks. You should be able to pick one of these up at any large truck repair. I've seen some pretty nice ones on the firewall of late model GM cars. So may find something at your local GM dealership.

Nothing wrong at all with going better on wires. GM didn't go overkill on anything, pretty much the minimum they could get by with. They were better than other car manufacturers of that time period though, especially the m word (chisler).

Thinking about this, you might consider doing the ford solenoid deal on this car. It would work as a juncton block, and the only thing going to the starter would be the main cable that's only hot while cranking. (Just a thought)

Crimp terminals: I solder all that I do. All factory terminals were either soldered or brazed/spot welded together. Solder type are still crimp but you provide the insulation. Heat shrink tubing works good for that. There's been quite a few times that people had wiring trouble and would find a wire lose enough to just slide out of the plain crimp terminals. A few times here it was on harnesses from the same place yours came from.
So yes we are talking about the same place. An area that sees more amps and more critical current flow than most any other place on the car. No place for plain crimp terminals IMO.

There'll be more
Clay

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Scott,
GM used 12 & 14 guage wire for the starter solenoid over the years. On most cars that had hot start problems, you usually found 14 guage purple going to the solenoid. They even used different sizes on the same car; like 14 from ignition switch to safety switch and then 12 from safety switch to firewall bulkhead connector. Then seems like what ever they had the most of went from outside bulkhead to solenoid.

Bigger would be better under the hood, for the simple reason that the hotter wires get the more resistance they have. So to me if all of it was 10 or 12 it would be that much better. There's not really much sense though in going bigger than the battery feed wire to the ignition switch. Other than the heat factor from running close to exhaust.

I was thinking about something a little different for the junction block. I didn't see the stud size on the one from Casper, and don't now how many wires it will hold and still be able to shut the lid. Just a black block with a stud would be fine for me. Something you would see under the hood of tow trucks, ambulances, and diesel trucks. You should be able to pick one of these up at any large truck repair. I've seen some pretty nice ones on the firewall of late model GM cars. So may find something at your local GM dealership.

Nothing wrong at all with going better on wires. GM didn't go overkill on anything, pretty much the minimum they could get by with. They were better than other car manufacturers of that time period though, especially the m word (chisler).

Thinking about this, you might consider doing the ford solenoid deal on this car. It would work as a juncton block, and the only thing going to the starter would be the main cable that's only hot while cranking. (Just a thought)

Crimp terminals: I solder all that I do. All factory terminals were either soldered or brazed/spot welded together. Solder type are still crimp but you provide the insulation. Heat shrink tubing works good for that. There's been quite a few times that people had wiring trouble and would find a wire lose enough to just slide out of the plain crimp terminals. A few times here it was on harnesses from the same place yours came from.
So yes we are talking about the same place. An area that sees more amps and more critical current flow than most any other place on the car. No place for plain crimp terminals IMO.

There'll be more
Clay

Clay,
I finally had a chance to get under the car today and look for bad wires, I couldn't find any. The wires going thru the tube were fine, sodered (not pretty) and shrink rapped. I changed a few things around, like powering the electric fan straight to the battery, not to the back of the alternator, also only having the positive battery cable go thru the tube, it sits very close to the headers, so maybe the heat could be or has been an issue. I beefed up the wires that go from the starter solenoid to the harness. I found a remote terminal from a towing supply comapny, I"ll try to order this soon. One other thing to mention, the Optima Yellow top battery I have has top posts that I use for the cables, and the screw in side posts that I have the fan wired to now and the stereo amplifier wire feeding from, that's ok, right?

I can't find any mented or shorted wires, at least not so far, should I take the entire interior apart to find something or could something else have does this? Removing everything a very scary thought!

Thanks,
Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Scott,
Using the extra outlett on the battery is fine.

I wouldn't think about taking everything apart inside. Something pulled a lot of amps to smoke what ever it was. Get a helper to handle the battery cables while you're looking inside under the dash. Soon as you see something, have the helper pull the cable. That should narrow it down to a single wire, and hopefully a single circuit. Then you'll know what to look at under the hood.

Be carefull and work fast, so you don't burn anything. Post back what you find, and we'll try to help figure it out.

It's time to get this fixed.
Clay

[ScottMDGTO]

Clay,
I looked more today and didn't find any issues, I did find 2 wires under the dash melted a bit, both pink. one going to the ignition switch, the other going to the alternator light I believe, both still worked but the coating was melted. Will I be able to see burn marks or signs of the problem if I come across the problem, in otherwords, will it be obvious?

I have one question, since many things are fused, would the wire causing the amprage issue be a wire that is NOT fused?

Would only a higher voltage wire cause this or could a smaller wire, like a radio wire or bad ground do the same?



Here is the termonal block site, what size stud do you recommend and how should I brnch the 2?

http://www.awdirect.com/single-stud-...ry-protection/

Thanks again,
Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Hey Scott,
Melted insulation might be all you see. You caught it before it got ugly bad. Pink is probably/should be IGN 1 coming out of the ignition switch. It's only hot with switch in run position, and it's only protection is the fuse link to the switch, coming from under the hood, the one that got the jumper. Ignition (coil) and dash lights is about all it powers.

It would be nice to know now how the harness (IGN1 & IGN2) was modified for the MSD. The indicator lights on the dash have pink going to one side of a bulb, so don't see how that could be a problem. Originally IGN1 and IGN2 both went to coil (+) terminal. IGN2 was straight 12 volts for cranking, where IGN1 had the resistance wire before the coil for running.

All wires/circuits are fused, it's just that some are fused twice. Some are fuse link only while others have fuse link and go through the fuse box. Any wire can overheat and smoke. Chances are yours wasn't one protected by the fuse box. So sounds like you need to give the ignition system a good look over, since pink looked melted. A bad ground on a circuit 'normally' just turns something off or keeps it from working.

The 5/16 X 1" stud should be plenty, as long as you use GOOD wire terminal ends.
Not sure how you'ld feel about the look, but using the side post on the altima, like you are now, is doing the same thing as a seperate stud/junction block. You could put a threaded stud in it, then clamp down what you need with a nut. Really depends on what all you're moving to the junction block. Anything really high amp, like the fan, would stay hooked to the battery if it was mine.

Check out that pink wire good and then we'll get into routing a common junction up top.

Which ignition system have you got, and how or where does it's running power come from? Most the boxes use factory ignition wires to turn them on and have a seperate power wire that hooks straight to the battery.
And what size do you think the melted pink wire is?

We may be fixing to get somewhere with this.
Getting a few more puzzle pieces anyway.
Clay

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Hey Scott,
Melted insulation might be all you see. You caught it before it got ugly bad. Pink is probably/should be IGN 1 coming out of the ignition switch. It's only hot with switch in run position, and it's only protection is the fuse link to the switch, coming from under the hood, the one that got the jumper. Ignition (coil) and dash lights is about all it powers.

It would be nice to know now how the harness (IGN1 & IGN2) was modified for the MSD. The indicator lights on the dash have pink going to one side of a bulb, so don't see how that could be a problem. Originally IGN1 and IGN2 both went to coil (+) terminal. IGN2 was straight 12 volts for cranking, where IGN1 had the resistance wire before the coil for running.

All wires/circuits are fused, it's just that some are fused twice. Some are fuse link only while others have fuse link and go through the fuse box. Any wire can overheat and smoke. Chances are yours wasn't one protected by the fuse box. So sounds like you need to give the ignition system a good look over, since pink looked melted. A bad ground on a circuit 'normally' just turns something off or keeps it from working.

The 5/16 X 1" stud should be plenty, as long as you use GOOD wire terminal ends.
Not sure how you'ld feel about the look, but using the side post on the altima, like you are now, is doing the same thing as a seperate stud/junction block. You could put a threaded stud in it, then clamp down what you need with a nut. Really depends on what all you're moving to the junction block. Anything really high amp, like the fan, would stay hooked to the battery if it was mine.

Check out that pink wire good and then we'll get into routing a common junction up top.

Which ignition system have you got, and how or where does it's running power come from? Most the boxes use factory ignition wires to turn them on and have a seperate power wire that hooks straight to the battery.
And what size do you think the melted pink wire is?

We may be fixing to get somewhere with this.
Getting a few more puzzle pieces anyway.
Clay

Clay,
The pink wire at the ignition switch is pretty thick, maybe 12 guage. Right above the fuse box is a smaller pink wire also melted, I cut it so I can fix it soon, and the only thing I noticed was the alternator light didn't come on when I turned the key on.
When I ordered the wiring from M&H they modified it for the MSD ready to run distributor and internal regulator, I would have to look at the car to see what the wiring hook up is. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8528/
I have the MSD blaster coil, I believe this is the one I have, I'll need to check the part #
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8202/

Right now I have the battery top post only feeding the one-wire-alternator set up and the starter. The side post has the screw in stud and the big 4guage power wire for the stereo is fed from there and the electric fan I just moved to there as well. I have not started the car from there yet.

Just to add, when I looseded the starter on Saturday, the big stud on the starter feeds the purple wire up to the harness and the solenoid has a plastic connector that clips in the opening to the terminal blade, similar to other power connections. If you saw this months High Performance Pontiac magazine, they do an install on one, here is the web site for the starter, www.hitorque.com , the site is lousy, but the magazine article is pretty nice. Well, my point to this is the connector that came with the starter is gone, and the mechanic that installed it just used a regular terminal connector. I don't know the name of the part, it's the female connector to the "blade" terminal? Sorry about my rambeling, I hurt my sholder yesterday and the Vicoden may be kicking in :-)
Can this choice of connector in such an important area be the problem? I didn't see any scortched areas in that area, just thought I'd mention it.

The reason I asked about the fused wires was, I had a remote power wire that powers the radio and Amp in the rear when the key is on, and it was exposed so to test, I rubbed it on a metal area with the key on and all it did was blow the fuse, so that made me wonder if the problem had to come from someplace that is not fused from the fuse box. Since this is an exploration, it would be nice to narrow things down and exclude wires that could have done this.
Also, since the week before the fuse at the fan melted, and the common connection point, at that time was the alternator, could the alternator be the problem?
Thanks,
Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Hey Scott,
Take car of the bones. That's an area I have a lot of experience in. I've done cars my whole life, but the past thirteen years has pretty much been limited to what we are doing here.

About the alternator light; does the one wire still use the side plug? It's what works, or has to be hooked up for the charge light to work.

Your distributor, the 'ready-to-run', wires like standard electronic ignition. The MSD boxes is what requires special wiring.

Haven't had time to look at HPP yet, but will try to get that checked out. A GOOD 1/4" female terminal on the purple solenoid engage wire should be OK.

Your accessory fuse blowing like it did is a good thing. You want the fuse to blow before wires can melt. Too strong of a fuse in a circuit is what gets you in trouble.

The alternator's been on the top of my list from the beginning. Maybe/maybe not the alternator itself, but more how everything was hooked to it. A lose connection/contact between the terminals on that out-put stud could've definitely caused some problems. Current could've been drawn through wires that it should'nt have been. Even possible that the altenator started charging wide open. That's what I originally suspected for the fuse melting on the fan.

Thinking about this alot. Just got a bunch going on here right now. That's why I was slow getting back on line. Will try to get caught up on everything by tommorow.

Clay

[ScottMDGTO]

Clay,
Speed of reply does not matter, the help you have been on this issue is priceless, I truly appreciate everything you are and have done, thank you very much.
I called M&H on Tuesday about this and also about a missing connector, the tech guy was very detailed and through in his explination, took almost an hour on the phone.

Some of his thoughts I didn't fully understand, so bear with me.
He said the main problem he suspects is the 140amp alternator. He said that this wiring is better than stock, but it can't handle anything much over 100amps without modifing a few things.
He said especially with the 1-wire, internally regulated alternator, some of his explinations I just didn't understand. He recommended I go to the 100amp alternator and remove the dash and engine harness and have them bench tested for voltage and contanuaty(sp). He said the anything that had the full 140amps could be damaged, startr, ignition switch, bulkhead, wiring, headlight switch if lights were on, etc...
He did mention they could do the bench testing, but the turn around time was weeks, with shipping and the testing fee, it seems like it may be better for me to just order a new harness? He did say it's a good idea to replace any "hot" wire in the engine harness now, like the solenoid wire, and the charge wire, etc..
I don't really have the time or money to send the harness out, I'm more inclined to replace the main wires and check everything, what do you think about this?

One of the things he said that was confusing, he said the 1-wire internally regulated, high power Alternators are an issue for standard wiring and that I didn't understand. You, Powermaster and all of the other mechanics told me differently, can you put it in laymans terms for me? I did send Powermaster an email asking them this question as well, havn't heard back from them yet, but their web site says there is no issue like this.

Thanks again,
Scott

[2002Z4CSS]

Originally Posted by ScottMDGTO

Some of his thoughts I didn't fully understand, so bear with me.
He said the main problem he suspects is the 140amp alternator. He said that this wiring is better than stock, but it can't handle anything much over 100amps without modifing a few things.
He said especially with the 1-wire, internally regulated alternator, some of his explinations I just didn't understand. He recommended I go to the 100amp alternator and remove the dash and engine harness and have them bench tested for voltage and contanuaty(sp). He said the anything that had the full 140amps could be damaged, startr, ignition switch, bulkhead, wiring, headlight switch if lights were on, etc...
He did mention they could do the bench testing, but the turn around time was weeks, with shipping and the testing fee, it seems like it may be better for me to just order a new harness? He did say it's a good idea to replace any "hot" wire in the engine harness now, like the solenoid wire, and the charge wire, etc..
I don't really have the time or money to send the harness out, I'm more inclined to replace the main wires and check everything, what do you think about this?

One of the things he said that was confusing, he said the 1-wire internally regulated, high power Alternators are an issue for standard wiring and that I didn't understand. You, Powermaster and all of the other mechanics told me differently, can you put it in laymans terms for me? I did send Powermaster an email asking them this question as well, havn't heard back from them yet, but their web site says there is no issue like this.

Thanks again,
Scott

It should not matter how large the alternator is for the wiring unless the wiring was changed to a smaller gauge than factory. The component on the circuit only draws what it needs. Nothing in the car will draw more than the starter itself that is why it has bigger gauge wiring.

[ScottMDGTO]

Originally Posted by 2002Z4CSS

It should not matter how large the alternator is for the wiring unless the wiring was changed to a smaller gauge than factory. The component on the circuit only draws what it needs. Nothing in the car will draw more than the starter itself that is why it has bigger gauge wiring.

This is my issue, M&H says that is not correct. I'm no expert, that's obvious. I just don't want my car going up in flames. This is why I'm confused.

Scott

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by ScottMDGTO

Clay,
Speed of reply does not matter, the help you have been on this issue is priceless, I truly appreciate everything you are and have done, thank you very much.
I called M&H on Tuesday about this and also about a missing connector, the tech guy was very detailed and through in his explination, took almost an hour on the phone.

Some of his thoughts I didn't fully understand, so bear with me.
He said the main problem he suspects is the 140amp alternator. He said that this wiring is better than stock, but it can't handle anything much over 100amps without modifing a few things.
He said especially with the 1-wire, internally regulated alternator, some of his explinations I just didn't understand. He recommended I go to the 100amp alternator and remove the dash and engine harness and have them bench tested for voltage and contanuaty(sp). He said the anything that had the full 140amps could be damaged, startr, ignition switch, bulkhead, wiring, headlight switch if lights were on, etc...
He did mention they could do the bench testing, but the turn around time was weeks, with shipping and the testing fee, it seems like it may be better for me to just order a new harness? He did say it's a good idea to replace any "hot" wire in the engine harness now, like the solenoid wire, and the charge wire, etc..
I don't really have the time or money to send the harness out, I'm more inclined to replace the main wires and check everything, what do you think about this?

One of the things he said that was confusing, he said the 1-wire internally regulated, high power Alternators are an issue for standard wiring and that I didn't understand. You, Powermaster and all of the other mechanics told me differently, can you put it in laymans terms for me? I did send Powermaster an email asking them this question as well, havn't heard back from them yet, but their web site says there is no issue like this.

Thanks again,
Scott

Scott,
Had to quote so I could have a referece to all the questions.
The M&H tech guy explination of the problem is BS. Based on what you posted that he told you, if you turned the switch on, the car should've burst into flames. Simple reason being, your battery has way more amps than your alternators capable of putting out. I'm not even going to look up the CCA's of the Optma, but I would guess it's in the 800 to 1,000 amp range. Well higher than the 140 single wire can do.
And how could the alternator effect starting wires or solenoid? The alternator isn't charging untill after the engines running. All of that is done by battery voltage and amps, that's well in excess of 100 amps on all of our older Pontiac V8 cars.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
"He said the anything that had the full 140amps could be damaged, startr, ignition switch, bulkhead, wiring, headlight switch if lights were on, etc..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Just think about that statement and your battery amps compared to max alternator output amps.

I'm sure they would like for you to return the harness for testing, it's how they make MORE money. You should be able to check it out yourself with some coaching. If for some reason you can't, I'd be more than glad to do it for you. I'm confident that you can handle this though. It may take phone contact instead of this way of communicating, so PM sent on that.

Willing to help any way I can.
Clay

[BVR421]

"Just to add, when I loosned the starter on Saturday, the big stud on the starter feeds the purple wire "

are you sure thats what the purple is attached to? The purple normally is the wire that engages the solinoid when key switch goes to crank position and as such must be connected to one of the small solinoid teminals NOT the big stud on the starter which would have a BIG cable from the battery attached. You mentioned the original purple had been lengthened with a red wire. Which purple are you refering to?