[madtexan]

Hi,

I have a 69 GTO 400 Automatic with AC and was wondering if the cam can be changed while the engine is in the car? If yes, what gotchas will I run into?

I don't know if this question can be asked but here goes: Is $800 a fair price for a shop to R&R the cam (I provide the cam and lifters) if I pull the engine and deliver to them?

Thanks in advance.

[mrrat1]

Can be done with engine in car, radiator/condenser will have to come out. RE $800 thats allot of $$, since you are doing all the hard labor. I did the same job in my 71 GP years ago, didn't have to remove the rad/condenser though. You can do it! Dave K.

[goatless]

1st, yes the cam can be done with the motor in the car. It's a big PITA though, especially with A/C. The radiator needs to be removed of course and then the A/C condensor needs to be removed, or at least loosened so it can be lowered out of the way. I was able to do mine without having to open the A/C lines. Lastly you'll need to remove the brace that the horns mount onto in order to get the requird clearance to get the cam out and back in.

2nd, $800 sounds high for a shop to change the cam with the motor out of the car and delivered to them. With the engine on a stand it's a relatively easy job. I wouldn't think it'd take me more than a couple of hours to change a cam with the motor out, allowing easy access to everything. And I'm not even a mechanic.

[drevil1]

No need to remove engine to swap cam. Remove radiator and un bolt vertical brace behind grill , and the cam will just fit in/out. If you have never done it before, you could probably do it in a weekend. If you are familiar with the exact procedure it can be done in a few hours time. I cant speak for the shop price of $800, but dont see a reason to remove the engine. I would bring them the whole car.

[David Jones]

I've done it twice.
No sweat, but an aching back.
I did it in car because I didn't have the room or a hoist or an engine stand.
Careful to drain ALL the coolant out of the block.
The condenser needs to be moved and the strut that supports the hood latch will need to be loosened and swung out of the way. I used the t-handle that you pull to open the hood as a helping hand in guiding the cam thru the bearings. Great time to do some detailing and cleaning while you are in there.

[madtexan]

Wow! Thanks for the quick replies.

What about the cam bearings? The machinist said they should probably be changed too. The engine rebuild only has about 2k miles on it in the 20yrs since it was put in. One other thing the shop said was that Pontiacs are notorious about the crank & cam not being properly aligned even thoug the marks indicate that they are so he said they would align that correctly. I'm assuming he meant to timing chain marks being aligned.

Why the concern about getting all the coolant fluid out of the block if it's going to stay in place?

I thought the $800 was high but thought I'd check with the experts

Reason i'm doing this is the cam in it is way too hot for the basic stock engine. So the exhaust stinks and the wife gives me grief every time I start it so it hasn't been run much.

The AC isn't hooked up so I guess removing the condenser wouldn't risk any more contamination on the system.

[goatless]

Pontiac cam bearings don't wear out that quickly. If they were replaced 2k miles ago they should still be like new.

You need to get the coolant level down below the waterpump holes so that it doesn't spill down into the oil pan when you pull the timing cover.

[madtexan]

Originally Posted by goatless

You need to get the coolant level down below the waterpump holes so that it doesn't spill down into the oil pan when you pull the timing cover.

What would be the best way to do this? Use a wet shop vac? Draw it from what locations?

[thefirebirdm@n]

I drain the water out of the block by pulling the lower radiator hose off the block. Gravity takes care of the rest. Just have a drain pan underneath to catch the water if your concerned about that. By the way, if you were willing to pull the engine to deliver to the machine shop, why not pull the engine and swap the cam yourself. As stated its very easy to do with the engine out of the car.

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by thefirebirdm@n

I drain the water out of the block by pulling the lower radiator hose off the block. Gravity takes care of the rest. Just have a drain pan underneath to catch the water if your concerned about that. By the way, if you were willing to pull the engine to deliver to the machine shop, why not pull the engine and swap the cam yourself. As stated its very easy to do with the engine out of the car.

I've never been able to get mine low enough in the block to keep it from leaking. I jacked the back of the car way up to promote better drainage and then dropped it back down so the level was below the holes. You could also just pull the block drains I'd imagine. If you get some in the crankcase drain the oil and rinse the oil pan out with a cheap qt of oil.

[madtexan]

You guys ROCK!

ONe more question please?

So what the mechanic said about Pontiacs can and crank not truely being timed properly even though the timing chain markings indicate it is..... is that true or rare?

Originally Posted by thefirebirdm@n

By the way, if you were willing to pull the engine to deliver to the machine shop, why not pull the engine and swap the cam yourself. As stated its very easy to do with the engine out of the car.

I wasn't really willing to do this. Having to pull the engine just to change a cam made it highly unlikely it would get done anytime soon If I went through the labor to pull the engine, I'd have to do some extra rebuilding of the block... and that would be $$$$.

Originally Posted by David Jones

I jacked the back of the car way up to promote better drainage and then dropped it back down so the level was below the holes.

I hope you let it down slowly instead of dropping it

Could I hook a shop vac to the lower rad hose location on water pump and suck out the fluid?

Your Green 69 looks just like mine. Black vinyl top, hideaways, cragars, Dark metallic green (mine is 2000 Trans Am color color).

[Ron Landis]

that for $800 or less, you could pay a competent mechanic to swap out the cam in the car and degree it as well, which would erradicate any possibility of a timing snafu...which is indeed rare from my experience. JMHO. Good luck. Ron

[PontGuy]

I was tempted to respond last night but saw you were getting plenty of help.

I never heard of Pontiac cam/crank timing alignment problems. Is he talking about degreeing the cam? Even if it is out a bit it does not sound like you are looking for a race tune. For a driver you can just install the cam straight up and be done with it, definitely not worth paying extra money to have someone degree it. And I wouldn't worry about the cam bearings unless you suspect a problem- cam bearings are not typically a problem area. It sounds to me like the shop just wants to do a high-end job and make extra money.

Changing the cam in the car is easy, I have done this several times. As already said you just have to get the radiator(s) out of the way. If you don't want to do it yourself you should be able to find a shop willing to do this for you, though you would have to pay for the extra work involved.

Getting a little water in the oil pan is not that big a deal, although should be minimized. In addition to raising the back when draining I have lifted the front end when removing the TC cover which tilts the engine back just a bit. I never thought about sucking water out using a wet vac- worth a try.

Pack a clean rag in the oil pan gap when you get the cover off and clean up the old gaskets from the surfaces before going any further. At the end of the job you will still have to clean up little bits and pieces of junk that get down there. Then flush it out with some oil as already mentioned.

You didn't say whether or not you have ever installed a Pontiac cam before. If so then you know the drill and if not then you can get more good advice here. Just curious- what cams are you considering? Never heard of one that cures "stinky exhaust"

Walt

[madtexan]

A little more history guys.

It is a base 350 horse GTO engine with old Hooker tube headers. GM HEI distributor that I recurved (weights and spring changed) based on an article in High Performance Pontiac around 1990.

I installed a HO Performance cam called HC-01 ~20 years ago. I installed it myself and I thought I did it in the car. That's why I was surprised to hear the mechanic say it should be removed. But then I thought that maybe I did it before I installed the engine. I would have used the Green Service Manual for reference. Gettin old and senile.... can't remember exact details This cam has higher lift than RAIII and a higher rpm power curve but tamer than RAIV. I planned to install a higher rpm stall converter to help it run better but never did. I did install Rhodes anti-pump up lifters to help the idle/vacuum smooth out which was rec'd by HO Perf when I bought the cam.


I sent my carb (orig Q-jet) to Cliff Ruggles who was highly rec'd here about 5 yrs back to get it rebuilt and I did that. I thought that would fix the nasty smell. People who have smelled the exhaust said it is running way too rich. We figured it was because the Cam Overlap was too much and it was dumping raw fuel out the exhaust. Since the car didn't get run much, I replaced the gas tank about 7 yrs ago but smell is still there with new tank and fresh gas. I burn 93 Octane from Citgo. Could the smell be caused by the valves not being adjusted right? IT doesn't ping at all when I get on it with 93 Octane Citgo gas.

I think it also lacks in low end torque for a 400 GTO engine. I thought that would be another symptom of having to hot a cam in the car.

I really appreciate all the help. I really want to remedy this problem this fall since the weather is nice to work on & drive the car.

[madtexan]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Just curious- what cams are you considering? Never heard of one that cures "stinky exhaust"

Walt

LOL, I didn't catch that at first but have to reply since I now get it!

But seriously I am considering a regular 068 grind. I'm also going to pull the old tube headers and install the D-port RAIII manifolds and a 2 1/2 inch exhaust with X pipe.

Mike

[jpdog357]

Mike,

I have the same issue with being over cammed in my 68. Unfortunately, I don't even know whats in the car as this is the way it came. Low vacuum, poor bottom end power, stink and lots of black smoke on launch.

Let us know what cam you eventually go with as I am thinking of swapping in an 068 grind but don't know what the best options are.

Thanks,

Jason

[PontGuy]

I can relate to old and senile, I turned 50 today. Just got back into all of this after a 10+ year layoff and still remembering stuff myself, and also finding that things have changed a bit during the past decade ot two!

If Cliff's carb didn't solve the problem then I doubt the real issue is running rich. But it sounds like you still have the high compression heads which is something that you should think about addressing. Just about everyone has reduced CR to around 9.5:1 or so in order run today's junk gas. Maybe that's the underlying cause? If so reducing the cam duration is probably not going to improve the situation- though I think you are right about it improving drivability.

I have a high lift version of the 068 style cam in my new engine, and currently installing the RA manifolds and 2-1/2" X-pipe exhaust. So understand your thinking.

Walt

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by madtexan

A little more history guys.

It is a base 350 horse GTO engine with old Hooker tube headers. GM HEI distributor that I recurved (weights and spring changed) based on an article in High Performance Pontiac around 1990.

I installed a HO Performance cam called HC-01 ~20 years ago.

I have a Ram Air III 4-speed with the 3:55 rear that had the original type cam when I got the car. I rebuilt the engine in 1980 using the HC-02 cam from H-O, larger screw in studs, their springs, poly-locks, etc. Everything appears stock from the outside and have the original 28273 carb. In 1980, this cam apparently had a little less lift than the later version HC-02. But this is the HC-02, and the car runs great! With a little more stall speed, I think your HC-01 cam MAY be fine, but I don't remember the HC-01 specs--but I think it was fairly tame on the duration. The duration, not the lift might cause a low end power problem.

I do think the HC-02 would be too much for a stock automatic 400, but you might find the duration specs to review before pulling the cam. The HC-01 was H-O's "one step up" from stock I believe. They knew what they were doing.

[madtexan]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

I can relate to old and senile, I turned 50 today.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WALT!!!

I also turned 50 this year.

So could the smell be caused by the valves not being adjusted right? It doesn't ping at all when I get on it with 93 Octane Citgo gas. It also doesn't have any color to the exhaust. It is clean looking. I put fuel stabilizer (red stuff) into the gas to stabilize it since it hasn't been started much..... anything related to that?

Would doing a compression test tell me something useful?

My vacuum level is good enough to hold my hideaways shut at idle and the idle isn't that rough either.

Mike

[madtexan]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

I have a RAIII 4-speed ith the 3:55 rear that had the original type cam when I got the car.
With a little more stall speed, I think your HC-01 cam MAY be fine, but I don't remember the HC-01 specs--but I think it was fairly tame on the duration. The duration, not the lift might cause a low end power problem.

The HC-01 was H-O's "one step up"

Yes that is what they told me about being a stepped up 068 cam..... but since you have a RAIII block/heads, wouldn't your engine handle the upgrade better than my non RA block? My engine would have come stock with a 067 cam wouldn't it and putting a regular 068 might be just about the limit????? I really don't know but trying to make sense of it all.

I'm sure I have the cam specs at home..... I'll dig them up tonight.