[getmygoat]

Originally Posted by madtexan

The washer is under the nut.... on top of the rocker arm. I think it just took up the slack. If I didn't have them in there, the rocker arms would have been really loose. It was almost like the studs were too long.

From what I can remember... 20 yrs ago now..... The studs had a shoulder (no thread at the bottom) that didn't allow the nuts to come down far enough to put any pressure on the rocker arms. My solution was to try the nuts. This was before the internet and this great forum for info.... I improvised! Maybe the Rhosed lifters came with locking nut or something too.

Any chance you still have the original stock "bottleneck" rocker studs on there?.... are you familiar with how all that works? If you are trying to run an adjustable valve train with stock studs it won't work. You need to change over to bb chevy studs.. these provide the full range of adjustment you need for that cam.

[PontGuy]

Not sure whats available now, but polylocks for use with the bottleneck studs were definitely available back when. I still have a set that I used with my 061 "dirt track" heads that had stock pressed in studs (necessary for the class). I ran a lot of different cams with those heads and always got them adjusted right in.

Stretching my memory- Converting to straight-up studs is not a bad idea and I think that the stock rockers still work. I started with Harland Sharp rollers in the engine that I just pulled out and later switched back to stamped rockers, for some reason that I don't really remember. But I just looked at it a few days ago and noticed that it still has the straight-up studs.

The important thing is that all the parts have to match up properly so that valvetrain geometry is reasonable and the pre-load is correct, which is usually pretty easy as long as the springs are not too heavy and set at the stock height. I remember that this can be a whole lot more complex when switching to heavier springs that need a longer installed height though.

Walt

[madtexan]

Yes they were shaped like a bottleneck... relying on memory right now. I'm going to pull the valve covers and check it out later on today. They were stock rocker arms and new push rods. I think I have some kind of locking stud system on top as well. I just remembered I couldn't get the rockers to "not be sloppy loose" so I put the washer somewhere. I'll take pics.

I have no problem buying new rockers, push rods, studs or whatever to get this running right. Does replacing the studs mean I have to remove the heads??

When I bought my goat in 1989 I got the original engine outside the car. I tore it down and then took it to a local shop. He told me the heads didn't need any work and unless I was going to put $$ into porting or something else, he recommended only replacing the valve seals and surfacing the heads so we did that. So he just rebuild the short block assy. So I don't know anything about the heads. They still have the original seats and such. I do remember that I put them upside down and poured gas or some other liquid into the chamber and both valves had a goos seal..... it took a real long time for it to leak out.

KEN CROCIE. I found the original sales receipt and your team didn't sell me the Rhodes lifters. I don't know where I got them or who told me to use them.

[PontGuy]

If you have the 16 heads then the studs are screw in so you can change them easily if you want. I expect that all this may be fine however you did it back then, at least not causing your problems. But if you are going to work on the car to get it running good then worth getting the parts to match up so you don't need washers.

I am more interested in the compression test. Though I wasn't able to find your cam specs on the internet, I was thinking that the Rhodes lifters might not be a good thing with that cam and the high CR heads. Those lifters will effectively shorten your duration at lower RPMs so your effective CR may be way too high. Sounds like Ken is thinking the same and it could be the root cause of your problems. If you get readings over 170 then we may be on the right track. Or if the pressures are all over the place from cylinder to cylinder then you will at least know there are bigger problems to resolve.

Did you get a chance to read through the stuff in the links? I take it you haven't been able to talk to Ken yet.

I am hardly an expert at this any more, but I was big into it back in the 80's and still drawing a lot from that experience. That, and reading and trading notes with the guys in the street forum here the past few months- there is a wealth of information available over there, though a lot of it is heavily slanted toward modifications and street/strip use instead of drivability in stock form. Its one of the reasons I have take a real interest in your situation- there is a potential for some good learnings here.

Walt

[madtexan]

I thought I'd share a few pics of the car you are helping me to repair


OK. I was able to measure the compression easily on the front three cylinders on each side of the head... I figured it was good enough for now to give us a starting point. Driver side front to rear 170,170,168. Pass side front to rear 150,165,162. I checked the accuracy of my compression gage against two air compressors I have with gauges and they all measured within 3-5 pounds of each other. The 150 on the pass side is of concern.

[madtexan]

Now about the rocker arm / valve assy.

I was wrong about the washer being under the rocker arm. It was just above the swivel nut or whatever you call it. So it was just under the poly locks. See picture showing the order in which they were installed.

The studs are removable with coke bottle design. See pic.

I also included a shot of the spark plug. THey all looked the same. SLight greyish brown color. Dry too.

[madtexan]

I forgot to mention that there was a splash gaurd over the valve assy that I removed. The cylinder from which I took the rocker arm assy apart had no tension on it at all. The valves were fully seated and it was one that the compression measured 170. I removed the washer and screwed the poly lock down and it bottoms out on the stud shoulder. The hex nut was removed from the poly lock so it wasn't bottoming out. With it on there like that the rocker arms are very loose and I'd be afraid to start it with them like that. Even with the washer in there, it still leaves it pretty loose in my opinion because the push rod spins very easily.


IMO and I am no expert on this........ either the valve stems are too short, the push rods are too short or the lifters (Rhodes) are too short. Or the studs are too long. Something is keeping it from allowing me to set it up properly thus the washers were thrown in there.

Now I rely on all your help on this.

[PontGuy]

Thats a really nice car, need to get that one running right!

The polylock shouldn't bottom out on the stud shoulder! Since we are doing pictures, here is one of the old bottleneck studs and polylocks that I dug up. The first pic shows them separately and the second shows the lock screwed down all the way until it runs out of threads. You can see that the bottom goes well below the shoulder. And if you look at the wear marks you can see that it will adjust down well below where the rockers were running on whatever cam I last used. So plenty of adjustment. Maybe your polylocks were designed for use with straight-up studs (or a Chevy?)

So you need to find some new studs and/or locks that match up to make it work right. Everything else looks fine to me and then you should be able to pre-load the lifters properly. This has to be step #1.

The compression numbers are pretty high but not as high as I was afraid they would be. If the valves are not set properly then I would think you might see some scattering in the numbers. So the jury is still out on that one.

Walt

[Bet Winner]

If you replace the screw in studs, you can always use 7/16 studs and corresponding polylocks. Stock is 3/8. The 7/16 are stronger of course, but either should be ok. (Keep any stock stuff that you have.)

You can get an approximate adjustment before the engine is started. After warmed up, I take the valve covers off, start the engine and back off the adjustment til the lifter clatters. Then I tightened almost one half turn down and lock them. You can leave it a zero lash, but the engine will clatter more til it is warm. Have some old towels ready to catch any oil.

I would replace the rhodes lifters--could these be ones for a chevy? I vaguely remember that they are different--but I may be mistaken here. But you don't need them with the HC-01, and they may be causing some adjustment problem.

You may not be able to use the splash shields with 7/16 polylocks because they may be too high, but the polylocks should be high enough for much of the oil from the rockers to hit the polylocks and fall on the rocker balls.

I apologize if we are giving you too much info here.

[HJones1313]

FWIW I've done cams "in-car" as favors before in less than 8 hours, and if you figure $60 an hour, well, do the math; $800 is high. Find a friend to help..

[madtexan]

Too much info..... Heck NO!!!!

I appreciate the help.

What does the term zero lash mean?

I don't think the Rhodes lifters are for a chevy. I may not have done this right but I would have made sure those were Pontiac parts. I really would like to avoid tearing the engine apart to remove the lifters if I don't "Have To" but if I ever do, they will come out.

First choice is to find poly locks that will fit over my existing bottleneck studs. If they aren't available at Auto Zone then I'll have to try a performance shop on Monday.

Would there be much benefit to put roller rockers on the car? More HP? Smoother running? Better overall? I don't mind spending a few hundred bucks if it will be an upgrade. I don't want to install something that will be a maintenance nightmare though.

[PontGuy]

I'll second the advice on 7/16" straight studs. Its pretty inexpensive and the easiest way to be sure everything matches, and also stronger than the stock bottlenecks. I don't like setting valves with the engine running because it tends to be pretty messy, but you can do it that way. (I did use this method on my dirt track cars where I didn't care much about oil getting on the engine.)

While you have the valve train apart I would run a long straight-edge across the top of the valve stems to make sure that they are all even. This is an easy check to make sure your valve seats are probably OK. I had an engine where the soft factory seats did not stand up to the unleaded gas and all the exhaust valves sunk- worth a quick check.

I also think the Rhodes lifters probably will need to go but still not sure about the cam.

[PontGuy]

Now we are crossing posts.

Forget about local parts houses for Pontiac performance parts. They may carry the studs since they were used on Chevy big blocks, but if you want to be sure that you are getting the right stuff then its better to order from the internet. And I would be shocked if you could find the right polylocks for a Pontiac locally.

If you have never set the valve lash it would be good to find someone to help you. Or pull some good instructions from the web. It is important to get it right.

Roller rockers won't add performance, but I have used them with big cams that require high spring pressures since the stamped rockers can (and will) break under severe conditions.

[PaulatFast]

Without actually smelling the exhaust, I sure can't tell you what your issue is, but remember a lean condition will cause similar issues. What I can tell you is that cam isn't your problem. As far as your mechanic... I think you have already received enough information to pass appropriate judgement on his Pontiac competance. I would continue to try and diagnose your issue with your current combination.

[PontGuy]

Paul,

I guess we got a bit side-tracked on the smell issue when we realized there was a real potential for the valve train to be out of adjustment.. may not be related but seems to me like the first thing to get correct.

If you read through the posts he already replaced the carb with a Cliff-built Q-jet, so mixture shouldn't be far off unless maybe he has a massive vacuum leak somewhere?

[madtexan]

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

Without actually smelling the exhaust, I sure can't tell you what your issue is, but remember a lean condition will cause similar issues. What I can tell you is that cam isn't your problem. As far as your mechanic... I think you have already received enough information to pass appropriate judgement on his Pontiac competance. I would continue to try and diagnose your issue with your current combination.

YOU guys have shown me much more competence regarding Pontiacs than he did so he's out.

I'm not going to replace the cam because after Ken Crocie, guy who I bought the cam from, chimed in and said that the cam is not too much for the setup and finding my makeshift washers I installed under the poly locks to try to take up the slack.... that's my first problem to remedy. Find the right poly locks/stud combination.

[PaulatFast]

Getting your valvetrain back together is your first issue. It wasn't your problem. We've used hardened washers befor for various reasons. Simply buy 7/16" studs and 7/16" polylocks from Summit and you'll be good to go, other than needing to get them adjusted propperly. You'll be back where you began. Or you could put it back together as is, since that wasn't the problem anyway.

[madtexan]

Too bad the thread name can't be changed as we move through the diagnosis steps

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Now we are crossing posts.

Forget about local parts houses for Pontiac performance parts. They may carry the studs since they were used on Chevy big blocks, but if you want to be sure that you are getting the right stuff then its better to order from the internet. And I would be shocked if you could find the right polylocks for a Pontiac locally.

If you have never set the valve lash it would be good to find someone to help you. Or pull some good instructions from the web. It is important to get it right..

Do you mean to find #1 TDC comp stroke and adjust, then rotate engine and adjust the next one in the firing order and so on? I have the big green service manual for the car and it's probably in there. I have a torque wrench if needed.

Roller rockers won't add performance, but I have used them with big cams that require high spring pressures since the stamped rockers can (and will) break under severe conditions.

I just thought Roller Rockers would be cool but I can stick with the stock rockers. Do rollers require more upkeep/ adjustments? Are they noisey?

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Paul,

I guess we got a bit side-tracked on the smell issue when we realized there was a real potential for the valve train to be out of adjustment.. may not be related but seems to me like the first thing to get correct.

If you read through the posts he already replaced the carb with a Cliff-built Q-jet, so mixture shouldn't be far off unless maybe he has a massive vacuum leak somewhere?

No massive vacuum leak because it idles ok and my hideaways work fine. but I need to get a vacuum gauge and measure to be sure.

Yeah, sorry we went from can the cam be replaced in the car to I'm trying to fix the smell issue and lack of low end torque to why I put washers under my polylocks. Remember I haven't opened up this car's engine in over 15 yrs so my memory was vague.

[madtexan]

Thanks Paul, I'm going to order the 7/16 studs and poly locks today. You know even when I had the washers in there, It might not have been adjusted right. When the valves are closed, are the pushrods supposed to spin real easy? When I grab the rocker arm and wiggle side to side, they make a noise like they are still a little loose.

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

Getting your valvetrain back together is your first issue. It wasn't your problem. We've used hardened washers befor for various reasons. Simply buy 7/16" studs and 7/16" polylocks from Summit and you'll be good to go, other than needing to get them adjusted propperly. You'll be back where you began. Or you could put it back together as is, since that wasn't the problem anyway.

[PaulatFast]

Did you have excessive valvetrain noise befor? If not, and I assume you didn't, the valvetrain was not loose. Too tight would cause many things, a rich or lean condition caused by low vacume (caused by valve adjustment) would be a stretch. I've been doing this professionally for a long time, I know how easy it is to get side-tracked and go off on a wild goose chase, only to be back at square one when you are done. Sometimes you will get lucky and fix the problem inadvertantly while you're fishing. Good Luck!