[Half-Inch Stud]

Per Gach comment;...I find .020under BBC Rod bearings IMPOSSIBLE to find for rods with pin. HIS

[roadrage david]

Cach im sorry thats BS. how many eagle cast chevy oldsmobile mopar pontiac Ford buick cadilac,
hell BMW ecetera cranks you think they have sold over manny years of production.
Give me a brake. This BS slander is a insult to your own intelegense, and everybody els who holds on to these rediculess claims.
The longer you guys keep this up the less seriues people wil take you for.... you can only sell crap for so long!! seems to me Eagle crap lasts longer then any other out there. Thats not LUCK thats good manufactord stuff . I belive the people who are un lucky should change to a diferend engine shop!!..

[Brian Baker]

Well, I bought my Eagle crank not long after they had issues with rough finished thrust surfaces that machinists were missing upon assembly, and they were taking out thrust bearings. My crank turned out ok. Like I said, it lived without issue on spray making 750+ HP but I attribute that to using a light reciprocating assembly, keeping rpm's below 6600, having the blocked filled as high as it could be filled and still run water through it (along with splayed billet caps), and paying attention to detail on assembly.

BUT !!!

Given the choice now between that and a forged crank (which wasn't available then), I'll take the forged crank for the same combo.

I agree with David...I think asserting that the quality of material may be suspect would have borne itself out by now on the market.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Gach. Quit making assumptions about engine builders. Now your slamming all Pontiac engine builders and no " Personal" experience with Eagle cranks except 2nd or 3rd hand info.

For someone that has built less then 5 engines in 50 years you sure ASSume alot.

No not making assumptions at all..my opinion is base on others experience with Eagle cranks, and there's been many. Don't take my word for it...just give Larry's machine a call, ( 1-860 0 499-9112 ) he'll give you an ear full of what his customer had to deal with buying and Eagle crank from Butler. First one was sent back, the second crank was worse then the first. 4-5 things worng with both cranks..ended up taking $400 worth of material to balance it.

Not Bulter's fault..Butler had no control over who makes them or quality of material.
Butler is good people to deal with and tired to make good.

Ask Greg he's the owner of Larry's...what he thinks, I'm sure you'll get the same response Cliff R, and others have given.

PS: allot of these Eagle cranks where drop ship right to customers, not even touche
by vendors hands, quick $200.00 bucks in their pocket...not even having to pay shipping. Some Vendors will sell their mother to make a buck.

[PLAY400]

Originally Posted by Gach

No not making assumptions at all..my opinion is base on others experience with Eagle cranks, and there's been many. Don't take my word for it...just give Larry's machine a call, ( 1-860 0 499-9112 ) he'll give you an ear full of what his customer had to deal with buying and Eagle crank from Butler. First one was sent back, the second crank was worse then the first. 4-5 things worng with both cranks..ended up taking $400 worth of material to balance it.

Not Bulter's fault..Butler had no control over who makes them or quality of material.
Butler is good people to deal with and tired to make good.

Ask Greg he's the owner of Larry's...what he thinks, I'm sure you'll get the same response Cliff R, and others have given.

PS: allot of these Eagle cranks where drop ship right to customers, not even touche
by vendors hands, quick $200.00 bucks in their pocket...not even having to pay shipping. Some Vendors will sell their mother to make a buck.

Thanks for the history lesson about all the problems when they first hit the market. Now do you have any recent data????

Machine shop I deal with says the Eagle cranks should be checked and some may need some refinishing done before installing but they are heads above the stock crank which takes more work and is still 40 years old.

[Gach]

Machine shop I deal with says the Eagle cranks should be checked and some may need some refinishing done before installing but they are heads above the stock crank which takes more work and is still 40 years old.

I don't have to....you just did. Buying a new crank then having to pay to have it refinish.
A crank that's question able if your making over 600 hp. No thanks think I'll just go with a steel crank and sleep at night.

[David Holmberg]

Vendors, of all types, feed their families by selling parts, that's what they do.

I have a stock N crank, that was hard chromed, that has over 12K street miles, 300-400 high 10, low 11 sec passes and 75 +/- 10.0 passes in a 3700 lb car.
Pontiac dude pulled the motor apart and the crank was great, didn't need anything.

IMHO, the weak factory blocks cause more crank issues than cranks do on their own.

[Gach]

Vendors, of all types, feed their families by selling parts, that's what they do.

Your right about that....BUT... there's good vendors..then there's that bad ones.
The good ones who say I personally check each crank before I ship to you. Then
there's the bad vendors who say they do and DON'T.... Then have them drop shiped directly to your door. Leaving you with the expense of having to refinish. He just made a cool $200.00 bucks for picking up the phone.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Gach, you need to get outside the Pontiac posting world. there are 10's of thousands of Eagle cranks on the market. You keep bringing up issues 8 years ago!!!!
Give it a rest. I do this for a living and have installed dozens upon dozens of Eagle cranks.
Ford BB and SB fords to Chevy's, imports, etc, etc, etc.

You have ONE complaint from a zillion years ago and they are all bad ????????????

You don't like em fine. but don't go making ASSumptions in a area you have NO experience.

I get so tired of a person like you without experience telling others they are no good.
Like i stated. I have seen more issues with USED factory cranks then Eagle cranks once spec'd and checked.
I even have a Factory 455 N crank in my shop without any oil holes to 2 rod journals. So that means they are are BAD??????????????????

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Gach

Your right about that....BUT... there's good vendors..then there's that bad ones.
The good ones who say I personally check each crank before I ship to you. Then
there's the bad vendors who say they do and DON'T.... Then have them drop shiped directly to your door. Leaving you with the expense of having to refinish. He just made a cool $200.00 bucks for picking up the phone.

So you think there is $200.00 to be made selling Eagle Pontiac cast cranks.

Let me know that supplier I need that contact.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Gach

Your right about that....BUT... there's good vendors..then there's that bad ones.
The good ones who say I personally check each crank before I ship to you. Then
there's the bad vendors who say they do and DON'T.... Then have them drop shiped directly to your door. Leaving you with the expense of having to refinish. He just made a cool $200.00 bucks for picking up the phone.

Ya made a statement: So who are the vendors that ship cranks out of their business saying they check them and don't.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

The failure rate at 730 hp is 100 percent, at least from what I've seen from a friend of mine who "windowed" two 400 blocks trying to use them at that power level.

I'd be OK with one at 500hp or less. Some folks claim they are OK for 600hp or so, but I'd never get a "warm and fuzzy" using one in an engine making that much power.

The forgings are nice $400 upgrade. We've got several in service to about 750hp, zero issues with any of them at any power level, and both myself and my customers sleep better at night!.....FWIW.....Cliff

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"So which has a better chance of surviving at 650-700 HP, Eagle or a well prepped Pontiac crank?"

The Pontiac nodular cranks are tough, and failures with them are pretty rare at any power level. The problem with "N" cranks is the lack of availability for them, and they aren't a "drop in" for the 400 blocks. One must also consider they will have millions of duty cycles on them already.

The rest of the story on our customer who broke two of them at 730hp is that he also installed one in a 500hp engine and decided to pull it down for inspection after blowing up two engines in his race car.

It was intact, but was cracked in several places.

We have observed several other complete failures at pretty high power levels with the Eagle cast cranks, it's just going to happen when you use a $200 part in a $10,000 engine. Folks should realize that it is 2010, and we have forgings available for $600. $400 is a pretty inexpensive upgrade to protect your expensive investment. It makes no sense at all to use a cast crank at any power level, IMHO.......Cliff

Originally Posted by old66tiger

I totally agree with Cliff. While my car is not a 'race' car, it made total sense to pony up the extra cash for a forged unit for this new motor. Total piece of mind at any power level.

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

I'll take the factory Pontiac cranks.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Dude...how about these guys...you get tired of them giving their opinions too...No you don't coz you knew better. You don't have to have personal experience when many others have given theirs. Gee..isn't funny how they don't go on the defensive.
You always turn opinions into personal attacks...just shows you have an agenda.


Like I said some just drop ship these cranks out with out even checking them...leaving the customer holding the bag for any expenses on having them fixed.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

Ya made a statement: So who are the vendors that ship cranks out of their business saying they check them and don't.

Who's we...sounds like your including yourself...nice try....BUT...that's not what I said...I said there's good vendors and bad vendors. Dude...your no match for me by yourself....get your posses in here...hurry...you need help....LOL

Your coming after me...when many with no personal experience have giving their opinion. Just recently a member on PZ told me a story about buying a crank from a well known vendor...who said...I check every crank before it goes out the door, and guess what that vendor never touche that crank coz it was drop shiped directly to his door. That's recent enough experience for me.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

All those posts you list have a given hp level they mention. So do I, but building a stock or 500 hp 455 and using an eagle crank has NO downside. You take things out of context and group everything together. I wouldn't use a cast crank of any kind in a 700hp and up engine either have stated so in all my posts. Just as other have. Put things in the right context and then it will make sense. Building hundres of CAST crank engines over the years and no issues. I don't see an issue. Depending on application.

So, Your gonna tell a customer that he Has to have a $700.00 455 forged crank for his 425 hp 9-1 455?

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

All those posts you list have a given hp level they mention. So do I, but building a stock or 500 hp 455 and using an eagle crank has NO downside. You take things out of context and group everything together. I wouldn't use a cast crank of any kind in a 700hp and up engine either have stated so in all my posts.

So, Your gonna tell a customer that he Has to have a $700.00 455 forged crank for his 400 or 500 hp 455?

No...DUDE! you singled me out...out of all those who gave their opinion..how about this guy...just using him as and example...but there's many others. Better get your posses in here to help you out.

Originally Posted by old66tiger
I totally agree with Cliff. While my car is not a 'race' car, it made total sense to pony up the extra cash for a forged unit for this new motor. Total piece of mind at any power level.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

All those posts you list have a given hp level they mention. So do I, but building a stock or 500 hp 455 and using an eagle crank has NO downside. You take things out of context and group everything together. I wouldn't use a cast crank of any kind in a 700hp and up engine either have stated so in all my posts. Just as other have. Put things in the right context and then it will make sense. Building hundres of CAST crank engines over the years and no issues. I don't see an issue. Depending on application.

So, Your gonna tell a customer that he Has to have a $700.00 455 forged crank for his 425 hp 9-1 455?

No I didn't...I said in many post...why would I want to buy a cast crank that's questionable going over 600hp. One guys says...his machine shop...says their ok, but have to be checked and some need refinishing. Allot of machines shops will say the same thing about any Eagle crank..dosen't matter if it's a Pontiac or Chevy...they've has good and bad experiences with them...their made in China. I perosnally wouldn't run one...that's me...I've read and talked to enough people to forum that opinion...I'm no different then anyone else...free to give their opinion.

Your problem is your afraid my opinion will influence others, and you'll lose sales.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

That's because you stated that you don't recommend and proceeded to add remard on what you feel the dealer or vendor will do.

Next: He stated that he wasn't going to use it in HIS engine. Nothing about what other should do. That is his choice and is a customers or builders prerogative.

Here's how I see it...( my opinion ) many of the Engine builders can't find good used stock Pontiac cranks, even when they do, they need work, 99% of the time they need turning...mag...balance. rod ends trun down to BBC, because 99% of the after market rods are sold with BBC rod ends. Once they become a dealer for these Eagle cranks they can put a kool $200.00 bucks in their pockets and not even have to tuche them...Nice !when one fails they have a miillion excuse why...so it's either your fault or the guy building you engine. Are they all bad...no!...but which one did you get.

Then go on to what the vendor is gonna say. You don't know what the vendor is gonna do. Then badmouth company's. That's all you do is Bitch.
If you would post an opinion without ASSuming what a vendor or company is gonna do, that would be different. First you say it's gonna fail, then the response a dealer is gonna make. You always go overboard and slam, blow things out of proportion, quote excessive profit margins and generally try and make any vendor or company the bad guy.

Better give up racing because 80% of the items in your car are made in China. Including MSD products now.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

This shoulda been posted

Originally Posted by Gach;

The main problem with Eagle cast crank stuff is the quality of material...flip a coin coz you never know what your gettting..yes some have had good luck while others not so good luck.

Here's how I see it...( my opinion ) many of the Engine builders can't find good used stock Pontaic cranks, even when they do, they need work, 99% of the time they need turning...mag...balance. rod ends trun down to BBC, because 99% of the after market rods are sold with BBC rod ends. Are the Eagle cranks all bad...no!

insted of this;

Originally Posted by Gach

The main problem with Eagle cast crank stuff is the quality of material...flip a coin coz you never know what your gettting..yes some have had good luck while others not so good luck.

Cliff R: I think has done a beautiful job on explaining his experiences with them.

Here's how I see it...( my opinion ) many of the Engine builders can't find good used stock Pontaic cranks, even when they do, they need work, 99% of the time they need turning...mag...balance. rod ends trun down to BBC, because 99% of the after market rods are sold with BBC rod ends. Once they become a dealer for these Eagle cranks they can put a kool $200.00 bucks in their pockets and not even have to tuche them...Nice !when one fails they have a miillion excuse why...so it's either your fault or the guy building you engine. Are they all bad...no!...but which one did you get.

That's what you shoulda posted instead of getting off topic with vendor or company actions not relating to the application of the crankshaft itself

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

That's because you stated that you don't recommend and proceeded to add remard on what you feel the dealer or vendor will do.

Next: He stated that he wasn't going to use it in HIS engine. Nothing about what other should do. That is his choice and is a customers or builders prerogative.

Dude...what the hell is remard...your not making sence.

Then go on to what the vendor is gonna say. You don't know what the vendor is gonna do. Then badmouth company's. That's all you do is Bitch.
If you would post an opinion without ASSuming what a vendor or company is gonna do, that would be different. First you say it's gonna fail, then the response a dealer is gonna make. You always go overboard and slam, blow things out of proportion, quote excessive profit margins and generally try and make any vendor or company the bad guy.

No...Dude...you single me out in this thread...your something..because you can read my mind...but have no opinion on others opinions in this thread...you came after me..trying to convince people of what your opinion is...of what I've said...always trying to turn my opinion in to a negative.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

This shoulda been posted insted of this;



That's what you shoulda posted instead of getting off topic with vendor or company actions not relating to the application of the crankshaft itself

So now...we make you judge and jury of interpreting what I said, convincing others that it's your interpretion....not my thoughts.