[njsteve]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

I hope that I've finally learned my lessons about opening my big, fat trap when I shouldn't . . . Pi$$ed a couple of folks off ROYALLY in the past.

Hey, I can keep a secret...ask anybody.

P.S. Nobody reads this thread anyway.
:-)

[superdutybob]

Originally Posted by njsteve

Hey, I can keep a secret...ask anybody.

P.S. Nobody reads this thread anyway.
:-)

Really? How did we get to 71 pages then? LOL I love this thread!

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by njsteve

P.S. Nobody reads this thread anyway. :-)

Yeah - uh-huh, right, Steve!

[njsteve]

OK, so I figured out the reason I keep burning up the ignition points. I just don't know how to remedy the problem.

Just out of curiosity I decided to check the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil (the black/pink resistor ignition wire and the yellow starter solenoid wire that are crimped together) when cranking versus when running.

It is completely opposite of what it is supposed to be:

When cranking it shows 9.2 - 9.6 volts. Which I imagine is a full 12 volts but reduced by the amount of juice it takes to run the starter motor.

When running it shows around 12.2-12.4 volts.

This is the opposite of what it is supposed to be doing! It should be 12 volts during crank and 9 volts when running. So those full time 12 volts are frying the points.

I just swapped out the ignition switch under the column thinking maybe it was defective but no change. I checked the starter solenoid and it is wired properly with the purple, and yellow wires in their proper position.

Anyone have an idea on this? Is the resistor wire not resisting?

The engine wiring harness was supposed to be the one for the points ignition. (AmericanAutowire part# FB20530) I am wondering if they built me the wrong harness, and gave me the unitized harness instead.

Can someone with a unitized ignition tell me what voltage they get at the pos coil terminal when the car is running? (Just connect a voltmeter red lead to the pos terminal and the black lead to ground.)

I don't know if this is a blessing in disguise since I am going to upgrade to the M&H breakerless setup this weekend and their site says it will operate on the between 6 to 18 volts. I know that you need a full 12 volts running when you put an HEI distributor in, just wondering if the unitized harness has the same 12 volt running voltage.

[Formulabruce]

if your going to upgrade, its fine, BUT it would never do 12 volts at crank normally. The starter load in amps would draw the voltage down some, even from a full charged 12 volt battery.
The unitized harness is a different part number.

[njsteve]

That's what I figured - that the cranking starter is using the voltage and just coincidentally its a 9 volt result on the meter from the draw.

And if I recall correctly, the unitized ignition doesn't have an external coil so the harness would be totally different.

But that still begs the question of the full 12 volts at the run position?

I replaced the starter solenoid a month or two ago with a new AC Delco unit but I cant see that as the problem. If it was defective, the car would either never start if there was an internal defect, or never shut off if the yelllow wire was getting fed 12 volts after its initial cranking period - but if that was the case it would be showing 12 volts even when the key was off.

I guess I need to test the ohm value of the alleged resister section of the black/pink wire from the firewall to the coil and see if it the factory 1.32 ohms as listed in the factory wiring schematic.

[njsteve]

Got the M&H breakerless conversion installed today. Started up just fine. Had to reset the timing, though since it was off by quite a bit. Must be due to the location of the sensor as compared to the points. Once the timing was set, she ran great.

I need to call their tech line on Monday to verify that running it on 12 volts won't be a problem. The specs on their website say it's good for 6 to 18 volts but I'd like to be sure.

I also need to call American Autowire Factory Fit, the makers of the wiring harness in the car and find out why their harness is not limiting the voltage the way it's supposed to.

[njsteve]

Here's a couple photos of what the brand new points looked like after about 25 miles worth of test driving. Nice blue toasty finish from the full 12 volts all the time. The contact surface looks just as fried.





I ended up removing the old resistor section of wire from the original burned harness and if I cant get no satisfaction from the company that made the repro harness, I guess I will have to just attach the resister section to the repro harness and hope that reduces the voltage to an acceptable level.

[njsteve]

Today's experiment involved taking the original resistor wire lead from the original burned factory harness and connecting it between the pos terminal on the coil and the pos harness leads to see if the voltage would be reduced. I would note that the original resistor wire does feel different than the alleged resistor wire that is in the repro harness. The original wire is a much stiffer, silver colored wire with a rubberized jacketing and, not copper wire with regular colored insulation as in the repro harness.

With the car running, the voltage varied between 10.5 to 11 volts depending upon idle speed. With the car off but the key in the run position, it shows 12 volts. Very interesting result since it indicates that the original factory resistor wire doesn't cut the voltage down to the recommended 9 volts.

I then took an old ballast resistor, (actually the one from the original cobbled together and toasted harness with the aftermarket electronic ignition) and connected that between the pos coil terminal and the repro harness pos leads. The result was 9 volts when the engine was running and 12 volts with the engine off and the key in the run position. Though not stock, it brings the car right into spec for points ignition running voltage.

I then removed the ballast resistor and hooked the repro harness back up as it was originally and it read 14.3 volts with the car at high idle. When not running but key in run position it read 12.4 volts.

The battery by the way read 12.8 volts with the car off.
When running and the alternator charging, the battery read 14.3 volts, the same voltage as the alternator output. If you shut off the car, unplug the alternator and restart the car the pos coil voltage reads 12.4 volts.

So the inevitable conclusion is that there is no resistor wire in the repro harness and that whatever voltage the alternator is putting out is the voltage that is going to the pos lead on the coil, resulting in fried points.

I will update this electrical mystery after I talk to American Autowire and M&H on Monday.

[njsteve]

I temporarily installed that ballast resistor between the factory pos leads and the pos terminal on the coil, just to be safe. I mounted the ballast low on the firewall using the existing through bolt from one of the three pedal bracket bolts coming through the firewall. You can't see it unless you are really looking for it. Runs 9.4 volts at idle.

My question is this: The tach now seems to read low, or it was just reading way too high before due to the higher voltage running through the coil?

In fourth gear at 60 mph it's reading 3,000 and at 80 mph its reading 4,000 rpm. (455, M22 and 3.42 rear with 235x60x15 inch tires).

Anyone out there recall their 60 and 80 mph tach readings?

[RicksGTO]

I had 3.42 gears in my GTO and it read about 3000 rpm at 65 with a 215-65-15 tire (26.0" tire compared to your 26.1" tires)
If you run that thru an rpm calculator and your speedo gear is the correct one, you should be reading around 2650 rpm at 60 mph and 3500 rpm at 80 mph. Here is a good one to use:

http://www.ringpinion.com/Calc_RPM.aspx

.

[72Formula]

Steve, would one of these help?

http://www.reliabilitydirectstore.co...FVVi2godAireYw

[njsteve]

Spoke with both M&H and American Autowire today.

American Autowire is working on getting me a replacement harness. They said it is possible that it was put together wrong, without a resistor wire, a few years ago when I originally purchased it. (Luckily I saved the invoice) They seem to be very attentive to customer needs and it looks like they are going to send me a new harness so I can swap it out and return the old one so they can dissect it.

M&H, the makers of the SE breakerless conversion indicated that you should only run the lower voltage (9 volts) to their unit when running and not a full 12 volt load because it will eventually burn out the unit. They agreed that running the ballast resistor is a good thing to do for the time being.

[Lloyd-TX]

Man - you've been through hell with your ignition system, Steve.

I was going to post that I also spoke with M&H about running full battery voltage to their unit, but you beat me to it. They also told me "NO"! FYI - full battery voltage to the coil when running will also severely overheat the coil as well.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by njsteve

Spoke with both M&H and American Autowire today.

American Autowire is working on getting me a replacement harness. They said it is possible that it was put together wrong, without a resistor wire, a few years ago when I originally purchased it. (Luckily I saved the invoice) They seem to be very attentive to customer needs and it looks like they are going to send me a new harness so I can swap it out and return the old one so they can dissect it.

M&H, the makers of the SE breakerless conversion indicated that you should only run the lower voltage (9 volts) to their unit when running and not a full 12 volt load because it will eventually burn out the unit. They agreed that running the ballast resistor is a good thing to do for the time being.

Hehe, had to know a MOPART would end up on your car, the Trans Am is just TOOOOO Close to them! Watch for the heat from that bad boy!!

[njsteve]

Victory at last!

Got the replacement harness from American Autowire this afternoon. It took more than four hours to pull the old one and put the new one in. It was not a fun time.

The junction to the firewall was a nightmare as it is behind the brake booster. You literally have to pull about six inches of the engine harness into the passenger compartment in order to disconnect it from the inside half of the dash harness. You then have to find something to pry the halves apart while hanging upside-down under the dash. Of course there is no room to tighten the main connection bolt once you get the new engine harness connected to the old dash harness. And in typical fashion, the internal retaining nut inside the main fuse box started spinning, making it just about impossible to pull the two halves together. Not a happy time. Completely shredded my hands and arms doing this.

The starter removal/reinstallation was another fun part of the process. The factory length on the 455HO starter harness section has very little extra play in it as it has to get around the front of the block and underneath the HO exhaust manifolds, unlike the regular Pontiac engines, so you have to hold the 20 pound starter up with one hand while removing/installing the wires with the other hand, while using your third hand to hold the wires in place so they don't move while tightening.

Here's the old harness after I got it removed and before sending it back to American Autowire.

[njsteve]

As we suspected, the harness in the car had regular copper wire instead of resistor wire for the positive coil lead. As you can see the black wire with the pink stripe is just regular copper wire:



The replacement harness had the correct resistor wire. It was actually labeled as resistor wire like the original one I pulled from my toasted factory harness. You could see it was a heavy silver and not copper wire.



Once I got everything reinstalled and hooked up, I started her up. She actually had the correct voltage, in the correct key positions: 9 volts when running! Finally no more frying electricals. Heck, now maybe my tach will even read the correct rpms. (I can always hope).

I gotta hand it to the guys at American Autowire. I don't know many companies these days, that would honor a warranty issue six years after you buy something. My original receipt was dated November 2004 but they honored the warranty nonetheless, and overnighted the new harness, no charge. Now that's the real test of a company - standing behind their product when something like this happens, regardless of the timespan.

[Pepi]

Glad it is working for you. That is awsome about American Autowire. More companies should follow their lead.

[OVERULD]

Good stuff! Very informative second act of this amazing play!

Congrats on slaying all the dragons!

BJ

[njsteve]

It just never ends!

You just keep chasing the bugs until they move to another car, or you move on to another car.

Anyone got a 73 SD that needs work? Ill trade ya! :-)