[Jimbro727]

LS9

[JUDGNOT]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

I built a KRE headed, hyd roller 461 that makes over 550 hp for 6k starting with nothing.

That is impressive. Will you please share with us what parts were used and how you accomplished the build so affordably?

[gearbanger]

I got my heads from KRE early on and I think I paid about $2400 for them, I also got the cam and lifters and timing chain from them that was like $800. I picked up a 67 model 400 out of a bonne for $150 and a stroker kit from summit for $1600. I think I had about $600 in machine work to get the block where I wanted it. So that is about $5500. By the time I got the oil pump, BOP gear, gasket set, valve covers, pushrods, etc., I had close to 6000 in it.

I actually did have the RPM intake, carb, HS rockers, HEI, hooker headers, and oil pan so I didn't count that. There was definitely room to save some money from what I did, but you could also spend alot more if you had to pay someone to assemble it and all that.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by JUDGNOT

That is impressive. Will you please share with us what parts were used and how you accomplished the build so affordably?

Yes, please share your list of parts and services and their associated costs. That 6K figure has my interest piqued, I was wondering how you were able to do a nice build like that for so cheap.

The aluminum heads complete, roller cam & valvetrain setup alone must have killed half of that 6K.

EDIT:I see you didn't count your induction ($600?), oil pan ($250?), rocker arms ($200?), HEI distributor ($200?) or headers ($500?). Nor did you pay for the engine assembly, that makes the 6K figure a lot easier to swallow. Add in my estimates for those items and you have closer to 8K in it.

In the case of my 430 HP 376-cube LS3, it came completely assembled and ready to run for $6,400 including shipping with a 2 year 24K-mile warranty. I still had to buy headers to replace the exhaust manifolds ($620) and an oil pan ($450) so it would fit my chassis. I was able to sell the OEM cast aluminum pan for $160, so my total oil pan cost was a little less than $300.

I could have bought a GM controller and harness for $900 that is necessary to make it run with a manual trans. Instead I chose to run an electronic overdrive auto trans and spent $1700 on a custom controller and harness that will control the engine and trans together and give me cruise control and control the cooling fans, fuel pump, etc. I could have gone cheaper using a modified factory harness, but I spent more and bought the best instead.

Right now I'll have about 450 HP (430 HP engine plus headers). With a simple cam and spring change ($600?) it would easily make 500+ HP, the LS3 engine comes with 320-330 CFM intake ports. Plus the 150# weight savings over an iron-block Pontiac V8 with aluminum heads helps even things up a little too, a bit less weight of it's own to move.

The added cost of the electronics to run the EFI makes it a little more pricey, but not by much over a Pontiac V8. The need for fuel system mods for either engine choice is pretty much a wash, any V8 street car with a 450+ HP engine will need some good money spent on a fuel system ($500?).

So the cost of running the EFI all-aluminum LS-series engine comes out about the same compared to nice aluminum head Pontiac engine. A little more for a cam change in the LS-series engine and the HP is pretty much equal between the two.

For an extra thousand dollars or two at the most you can run the modern EFI engine that's lighter and has very comparable power to the older V8s.

It all depends on what you like.

I like both choices.

[David Holmberg]

Trey, you're in the Houston area, right?

If so contact Skip Fix on this board, he can help you in person get the right set up for your car.

We have a plethora of members in your area that would be willing to help locate the parts you need. Plus then you'd meet a great group of people to hang out with.

[gearbanger]

There definitely are some hidden costs there. My oil pan is the stocker and the headers were the 1-5/8 hookers ($100) and the HEI is a junk yard jewell. So there really is not that much outside the intake and carb. I got the RPM off ebay for 125 new and I built the carb for 300. So really it isn't anywhere near 8k. But like you said, if I had to pay to have it all done it would be much more.

But...if you had to pay to have all that LS3 swap that you are doing figured out and installed, I venture to say you would probably double your project cost. So I still say that going with a stroked version of the engine the car came with is a far easier and cheaper way to get to the power level you are looking for.

Like B-man said though, you would have a more reliable, more economical combo with the LS deal.

You might be able to go to a carbureted LS3 and save lots of bucks. Then later you could do all the electronics and put the injection back on it if you wanted. I think the intake is about 1k and a carb would be 4-7 hundred depending on what you want. I always thought that would be a pretty cool way to do it.

[b-man]

My swap is a little involved, but it's really not much more than locating the new engine mounts and drilling some holes, installing a new EFI-ready fuel tank & 3/8" fuel line and putting in the engine harness and controller. I easily could have hooked up the new headers to my old 2-1/2" exhaust that was still in perfect shape.

It took a bit of beating and banging to get my choice of transmission to fit, but that's no different from and in fact much easier than getting a TKO 6-speed into one of these cars no matter what engine it's bolted to. Any good manual or auto overdrive trans conversion costs a bit of money and usually involves some hacking.

Don't let the fact that I decided to do a lot of restoration on this car skew your thinking about how much work and expense goes into swapping in the LS3. The time I have into the actual engine swap really isn't really very much.

The body recieved a fair amount of work including floor and window rust repair plus new body to frame mounts. The aftermarket A/C install along with all new front & rear suspension and brakes plus a new rear end make it seem like a lot is going on to get that engine in there, but none of that really needed to be done.

If I had just pursued a pure engine swap only, I'd be done already and left with a much thicker wallet.

If our PY do-it-your-selfer's here all paid someone else to do their project labor we'd all have 100 to 200K into our cars. I didn't have to spend time putting my engine together, so that's a plus that freed up a little extra time to spend on the swap instead. Restoring one of these old warriors or rebuilding/updating the mechanicals is a lot of work no matter what engine you decide to use.

Just bolting in a new Pontiac V8 is waaay easier for sure. That's the way I did it the first time around, but with a budget-built $2500 455 that I cut a lot of corners on. I really liked it like that, I had a total of $3500 in the entire drivetrain including a new radiator and exhaust system. All stock stuff mixed and matched, I was happy with 350 HP and 10 MPG city and 13 MPG highway. I had to be, that was all I could afford back then.

For the next incarnation I wanted the advantage of 150 to 200 pounds less weight over the front wheels and better fuel mileage. This will be a 25 MPG car on the highway and will corner a lot better with less front end weight. With cruise control for added comfort on long trips too.

Big factors that helped me make up my mind to do the extra work and spend a little more money.

[71 T/A]

Originally Posted by JMackPontiac

Put a 'REAL PONTIAC' engine in it! You can build a 550 HP and 575/600 TQ that will get you the RWHP that you want and it won't cost $8-9 K if you shop around for a 'good' block, crank, rods, pistons, etc. The Pontiac 462 will KILL the LS1 or LSX for what you are wanting to do, if you make it hook of course.

Nothing against the LS1 or LSX engines, they just belong in a Chevy, not a Pontiac...........period. That is like inbreeding, not cool. If you must go with a 'corporate' engine, get rid of the Pontiac and buy you a Chevy.

JMHO and yes, I am biased...........I am a PONTIAC PURIST!

Good luck with your project/build.

JMack

You'll ruin your T/A by putting a Chevy in it. The 455 is the way to go. If you have or can get a 400, put a stroker in it for 455 ci.

[David Holmberg]

I disagree with that.

It's only ruined if it never goes back to all Pontiac. While he's the owner and enjoying the car why not put an all aluminum motor in it and have some fun.

I personally know of 4 69 TA's that were drag raced, one still currently with a cage and a Dana 60. But, as long as they are returned to stock at some point it's not ruined. IMHO.

I've given a LOT of thought to putting a LS3 in my TA and drive it to the track and run 10's... But then I've built a few LSx combos and know what works with them.
But, the car would always end up with a real Pontiac motor back in it.

[71 T/A]

Interesting pont, but on a personal note, I hate Chebbies in Pontiacs.

[David Holmberg]

I do too.

[70UglyBird]

This thread is pretty interesting, because I'm going through the same thing myself right now. I come from the LS world from a relatively stock 98 z28 to a ridiculous Chevrolet Racing "mild" 454 cubic inch LSX block motor in a low mile 99 SS that put down 550 and 525 to the wheels but my mom could drive it and I got better gas mileage in it than I do my trailblazer SS.

That said I had about 10k into that motor not counting heads because I already had them. Whats missing here is the lower cost stuff and what is easier to work on. I've done all my own work my fbodies and the z06 I had, I'm having a heck of a time with the pontiac 350 as my posts in this section illustrate embarrassingly. The LS1 is a much easier engine to work on it just goes together, things only go on one way for the most part, and the fit is solid. Fuel injection seems simpler too, scale the injectors, set your timing and if it goes lean give it fuel and vice versa (part throttle is a little different)

Before I came on this board I had no idea what the old Pontiac were capable of, the 461's etc are truly impressive especially in the torque and I think if I could get a 550rwhp monster to fit under the formula hood I might go for it.

That said you can do a truck or ls1 engine extremely cheap, I mean do it right for under 3k and have close to 300-350rwhp with a medium sized cam 5.7+. Then you can go in stages moding it here and there to get to the 400rwhp.

What I'm finding with the Pontiacs you have to plan them out from the beginning. Heads that work on my 350 make no sense for a 455 so I don't even waste the money. It almost seems to be an art which is probably why alot of guys are so loyal.

I have a line on an LS1 long block that needs to be rebuilt and an LS6 crank and rods I'm leaning pretty hard in that direction for long term. Although I'm taking some cash to the Portland Auto Swap meet....maybe there will be the perfect start for a Pontiac Stroker.

I think if your goal is 400-425rwhp the ls1 is a sweet motor and you could do it pretty cheap, above that number though I think the Pontiac has it beat bang for buck. You start doing a stoker ls1 with ported LS3's, jesels, Fast intake and TB you get over the 10k mark in a hurry I have the spreadsheet to prove it

[rohrt]

For those that have driven both the traditional pontiac and LSx motors with equivilant power, what was more fun to drive and why? What would you rather take on road trip and why?

[70UglyBird]

Obviously I have no idea of the fun to drive, I'm guessing road trip the LSx is a better solution as the FI will adjust to different conditions and reliability is pretty high if done right.

I will say this there is no comparison in sound. My 150hp 350 Pontiac sounds WAAAAAY meaner than any LSX I or anyone else I've known. I've probably had more than a dozen different lsx cam and exhaust combinations, its not even close. I feel like kind of a poser with my mean looking and sounding firebird knowing hyundi Tiberon would probably take me.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by rohrt

For those that have driven both the traditional pontiac and LSx motors with equivilant power, what was more fun to drive and why? What would you rather take on road trip and why?

Several years back I had my choice of 2 cars that I could drive to work, a mild 455-powered (8.2:1 compression, 068 cam) '64 Tempest and a bone-stock 5.7 LS1 (346-cube) '02 WS6 T/A convertible. Both cars had about 350 HP.

1/4 mile times:

Tempest - 13.899 @ 101.85 MPH - traction-limited ETs due to hard radial street tires, tall gearing and lack of a posi rear. Used only 1st and 2nd gear to run the 1/4 mile. Pretty decent MPH for a low-compression engine with a stock '66 Tri-Power, 068 cam and HO exhaust manifolds. Race weight of 4050#.

T/A - 13.44 @ 104.03 MPH - much better gearing for drag racing with a 3.06 low gear and 3.23 rear, still somewhat traction-limited on stock tires but the posi rear helped. Race weight of 3900#.

The 455 (462) Tempest was more fun to drive around town because of the instant torque generated by the 455. The LS1 torque output was understandably lower and would come on later in the RPM range so it wasn't as satisfying when starting off from a stoplight.

On a road trip the T/A was much nicer to drive, fuel mileage was about double that of the 455. The 455 would get 9-10 MPG in town and a best of 13+ MPG on the highway, the LS1 would get 16-18 MPG city and 26-27 MPG on highway trips.

The 455 was backed by a TH400 with a 13" Continental converter and 2.56 gears with a 25.3" tall 235/45-17 tire. The LS1 was backed by a 4L60E (electronic version of the 700R4) with the stock lockup converter and 3.23 gears with 25.6" tall 275/40-17 tires, final drive ratio in OD was 2.261:1.

The tall 2.56 gears behind the 455 were still responsive enough to be fun to drive around town, but no doubt killed some of the city fuel mileage because it required a bit more throttle opening to get the car moving.

I'm still waiting to finish the 430 HP LS3 install in the '64 Tempest as family issues have prevented me from making much progress on it lately. At the same time I'm gathering parts and planning a '64 370 HP 421 HO buildup for my '64 LeMans convertible. The 421 HO engine will be stock except for the camshaft and the compression will be lowered a tad to cope with 91 octane fuel.

I like both Pontiac and LSX engines, they both have their strong points and are great engine designs.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by b-man

Several years back I had my choice of 2 cars that I could drive to work, a mild 455-powered (8.2:1 compression, 068 cam) '64 Tempest and a bone-stock 5.7 LS1 (346-cube) '02 WS6 T/A convertible. Both cars had about 350 HP.

1/4 mile times:

Tempest - 13.899 @ 101.85 MPH - traction-limited ETs due to hard radial street tires, tall gearing and lack of a posi rear. Used only 1st and 2nd gear to run the 1/4 mile. Pretty decent MPH for a low-compression engine with a stock '66 Tri-Power, 068 cam and HO exhaust manifolds. Race weight of 4050#.

T/A - 13.44 @ 104.03 MPH - much better gearing for drag racing with a 3.06 low gear and 3.23 rear, still somewhat traction-limited on stock tires but the posi rear helped. Race weight of 3900#.

The 455 (462) Tempest was more fun to drive around town because of the instant torque generated by the 455. The LS1 torque output was understandably lower and would come on later in the RPM range so it wasn't as satisfying when starting off from a stoplight.

On a road trip the T/A was much nicer to drive, fuel mileage was about double that of the 455. The 455 would get 9-10 MPG in town and a best of 13+ MPG on the highway, the LS1 would get 16-18 MPG city and 26-27 MPG on highway trips.

The 455 was backed by a TH400 with a 13" Continental converter and 2.56 gears with a 25.3" tall 235/45-17 tire. The LS1 was backed by a 4L60E (electronic version of the 700R4) with the stock lockup converter and 3.23 gears with 25.6" tall 275/40-17 tires, final drive ratio in OD was 2.261:1.

The tall 2.56 gears behind the 455 were still responsive enough to be fun to drive around town, but no doubt killed some of the city fuel mileage because it required a bit more throttle opening to get the car moving.

I'm still waiting to finish the 430 HP LS3 install in the '64 Tempest as family issues have prevented me from making much progress on it lately. At the same time I'm gathering parts and planning a '64 370 HP 421 HO buildup for my '64 LeMans convertible. The 421 HO engine will be stock except for the camshaft and the compression will be lowered a tad to cope with 91 octane fuel.

I like both Pontiac and LSX engines, they both have their strong points and are great engine designs.

I appreaciate the response.

[Nicks67GTO]

If I didnt already have most of the stuff together to put a traditional Pontiac back in my GTO i would be going the LS route without hesitation.

I have a 1970 Chevelle im going to turn into a daily driver in a few years and without a doubt, that will be getting an LS.

[72blackbird]

IMO comparing a carbed poncho V-8 w/ a 3-speed non-OD trans to a fuel injected LS V-8 w/ a 4-speed OD trans isn't a fair comparison in terms of mpg- naturally the newer design which is lighter, has less rotating mass, is computer controlled, and has an OD trans will get better mileage. A 7.6l V-8 will also use alot more fuel than a 5.3l V-8, so the cid difference would also play a factor here.

It would be interesting to see what kind of power and mpg a 350P would make if treated to similar gear as an LS1- fuel injection, aluminum heads, roller cam, high-flow exhaust and of course good pistons and rods. I used to pull down 16-20 mpg w/ my original 350P, e-performer, 625 cfm AFB, stock cam and exhaust, so I'd image the good ol' 350P could come close- not bad for a 50+ year-old engine design.

We already know what engine would make more torque, so there no point in going over that.

Geno

[Kell]

Originally Posted by 71 T/A

Interesting pont, but on a personal note, I hate Chebbies in Pontiacs.

X3, it's the soul of the car, change that and you change the whole experience, it's one of those things you either get or you don't, some weird Pontiac thing I picked up when I was younger? though I wouldn't be offended if you did swap it, I would never be personally interested in a car like that (must be getting old and set in my ways), no offense.

[nkowi]

Clearly, each of the options discussed in this thread has both fans and detractors, merits and shortcomings. Something I didn't see mentioned though, is that the LS option requires a significant outlay of cash just to purchase the engine, versus a series of smaller expenditures to build the Poncho. I was fortunate enough to have the means to build my 455 all at one time, but not everyone shares that luxury. Plus, even though I could've spent the money all at once, I didn't. I figured that from a The-War-Depatment-doesn't-really-need-to-know-the-actual-cost (does she?) standpoint the Pontiac offered a distinct advantage.

C'mon, am I the only one here who doesn't always make full disclosure?