[MikeNoun]

What's interesting is that Jim Mattison stated a long time ago that part of his costs were having to pay Pontiac a royalty fee for each packet processed. But now that Pontiac is gone, wouldn't that eliminate the royalty fee, making it cheaper now?

Again, I'm not complaining, I still think the fee is reasonable, but I wonder if the reason of "...since Pontiac went away, we had to raise prices..." isn't just an excuse to raise prices.

[bdk1976]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

I think this is the answer:

I'm more interested in specific answers rather than your interpretation of a vague press release.

68gtoMN - good post.

[JLHarper]

Considering PHS price increases over the years.......comon...really!

They havent rasied prices anywhere near what someone else might have done, imo.

Plus, you know what? People would have "still" paid the higher prices, after all this is insurance for shelling out a bunch of hard earned cash and buying a 30+ year old car that is in a hobby rife with fraud.

I think we are darn lucky to have PHS and looking at the price increases, its not even worth discussing, imo.

Be happy! If you have an old Pontiac life is good!

Jeff

[muscle_collector]

absolutely hands down the best bargain in the car collecting world. anyone who would complain about a mere 65.00 needs their cheap azz head examined or change hobbies.

[MikeNoun]

Here's a photo of where the records are stored, the heart of PHS:




Again, I think $65.00 is still a bargain considering what could happen if you didn't have this service!

I can't speak for Mr. Mattison and to why prices were raised, but I would imagine that PHS business is WAY down since the advent of the web, and especially in the past 5 years or so. Most Pontiac invoices are now exchanged via e-mail, displayed in web forums, or shown on E-Bay.

Note : You should ALWAYS get a fresh PHS doc if you're interested in buying an old Pontiac to prevent people from doctoring or fabricating an invoice using their computer.

[keith k]

I feel very fortunate that the records are still available for these old Pontiacs. And $65 is certainly cheap, as provenance goes.

But the flip side is, Jim doesn't really do much for your $65 other than pull a file, run a copy, and put it in an envelope with some pre-printed materials. So the "service" aspect is kind of lame. I'd say the "marginal profit" of each order is pretty high.

I continue to be disappointed that he hasn't made more of an effort to database the records to provide more detailed information on quantities of options/features/colors built, for example. That sort of info is available from Kevin Marti for Fords, and it didn't come to him that way... he had to put the data together.

[PB]

Did Jim Purchase these records from Pontiac? I ordered a PHS on one of my 72's I've had since new just for the documentation and it came with a 72 Memo of all options with how many cars had what options on it. There is also memo's from 71 and 70 out there...freely shared. I too think this is a bargain and am glad to have its resource at my availability, but why not put all the VIN #'s into a data base like 68gtoMN stated?

Why is it Jim has the access to it? Why not put it out to the masses like the Option memo's I stated above? Why keep them in a file cabinet?

[RA1John]

The value of documentation for your Pontiac is without a doubt, far greater than $65.
That Pontiac saved these files is incredible; That they cared about the hobbyist shows that once upon a time, they were involved w/the customer (remember when they sent the Build Sheet/Invoice out for FREE?). No one would argue that $65 is too much.

However, considering what is really involved and that Pontiac/GM actually owns these files, it is interesting that the product being sold remains a simple photo copy. It's also interesting that despite an increase in problems w/fraud of the BH, nothing has been done to try and improve upon the copy sent out. Why not add a feature to prevent or significantly deter people from altering their copy when they go to sell their Pontiac?

Even Baseball card companies started doing this back in '90 (hologram added).
What about a special seal or stamp on the copy? Personally, I think keeping things as is generates return business. What a great product... selling the same thing over & over again.

Not to mention, having exclusive access to these files makes it possible to have first dibs on some really rare cars and the possibility for researching the whereabouts of certain rare cars.
(when I documented my RA 'Bird in the early '90s, I received a call from JM asking if I wanted to sell it).

The database idea is terrific. Yes, it would require a lot of work but imagine the possibilities. People would no doubt pay for additional information. If these files were truly being used for the good of the hobby, one would think that there would be an effort to provide more research into what these files offer (specific production breakdown). We all have seen the Engine Production Logs but, do these really represent exactly how many cars were made?

Fred Simmonds did some great research in the 80s w/these files. Many have the spreadsheets he produced showing specific breakdowns for certain models. No one paid him to do this. Obviously, if he were able to do this, it is possible to do it for other years/models.

In the end, we can critique all we want to; It really has no bearing on what will result.
The price for a cheap photo copy could be raised to $1000 and people would still pay it.

The issue is not about value; it's about the potential for expanding the value these files represent to the enthusiast. How many people do you think would offer their time for free to sort through the files and build a database? I'm guessing quite a few. Of course, if specific details were provided as to production breakdown, they could only be sold once (sorta like the Engine Production Logs and Fred Simmonds spreadsheets).

Anyhow. Just my two cents.

[johnta1]

Fred Simmonds did some great research in the 80s w/these files. Many have the spreadsheets he produced showing specific breakdowns for certain models.

Where are these spreadsheets at now?

Who has one?

[gto_ron]

Just my 2 cents, $65 is one of the few true bargains left in the Pontiac resto hobby. The idea of a database with all the paper records converted to a year-by-year database is a great idea. But it would be a true time hog and I doubt if Jim has the time or the staff to do it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Here's a photo of where the records are stored, the heart of PHS:

Mike - that looks like the previous office at "Shows & Shoots" in Sterling Heights.

The office has moved since then.

Funny story - the way I found it was I had to go to S&S to give my approval on some GM Show cars. As I was following my host through the hallway I looked through an open door and there was JM - standing at the Xerox machine running copies.

Needless to say I got distracted from my original purpose and we had a nice visit...

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by keith k

That sort of info is available from Kevin Marti for Fords, and it didn't come to him that way... he had to put the data together.

I could be wrong but I understood the Ford information was already computerized, but Marti still had to do the database work to sort it out.

The PHS records are all on paper so they would all have to be entered into a computer by hand - when you figure a half million cars or more were produced every year that would take a lot of work.

[MikeNoun]

Keith, that probably was his old office. The above photo was from 1999!

Great idea to put some kind of hologram or something on the PHS invoices he sends out. Someone should e-mail Jim about this.

A regular watermark (like in MS Word) probably won't do any good, because an unscrupulous person could just scan an invoice into their PC, then make changes using PhotoShop, and carefully work around (or fix) the watermark.

But he could use a watermark that's only visible at certain angles, watermarks that can't be copied. That would only require him to print out the invoice on special paper. Perhaps it would have a big "PHS" watermark across the invoice.

They also have some neat anti-counterfeiting paper that will print "Fraud" across the document if it is copied. I think it's activated by bright light, so when a copier light beam passes over the document, the copier prints "Fraud" in giant letters. I saw this recently on a banking site for how to identify a fraudulent money order.

I have a PHS doc for 70 Judge that was on E-Bay a while back, and it was total forgery. I captured the image just before the seller removed the photo, then changed the description of the car to a GTO instead of a Judge.

[68gtoMN]

I love the direction this discussion has taken. I see affirmations of the value of this service (agreed in spades). I do not see complaints or whining; rather, I see constructive criticism and the offering of new ideas that would increase the value of these services to the customer and provide new revenue streams to the proprietor. To me, this is a pure win for the hobby to have the open dialogue.

Now, as for converting from Microfiche to database (As I understand the records are on microfiche), there are programs that will capture or “scrape” data from either microfiche or from paper via scanning. That data can then be “mapped” in the database to specific fields.

The beauty of this data is that there are only a few different format changes for the various years. Once mapped for one record of that format the real work is done. There are companies who offer to convert the data from one form into another. One could then have a database created to house/manage that data. None of this is prohibitively expensive. It would be an investment in new technology and a bit of time (again, not terribly difficult) to modernize the information delivery and open up options for new services. As an added benefit, the speed at which a search could be made would be improved.

These are just ideas. When I return home, I will scan and post the “new” or cleaned version of my 1968 documents to show what one could have instead of the old photo copies.

[dennis kirban]

Originally Posted by RA1John

The value of documentation for your Pontiac is without a doubt, far greater than $65.
That Pontiac saved these files is incredible; That they cared about the hobbyist shows that once upon a time, they were involved w/the customer (remember when they sent the Build Sheet/Invoice out for FREE?). No one would argue that $65 is too much.

However, considering what is really involved and that Pontiac/GM actually owns these files, it is interesting that the product being sold remains a simple photo copy. It's also interesting that despite an increase in problems w/fraud of the BH, nothing has been done to try and improve upon the copy sent out. Why not add a feature to prevent or significantly deter people from altering their copy when they go to sell their Pontiac?

Even Baseball card companies started doing this back in '90 (hologram added).
What about a special seal or stamp on the copy? Personally, I think keeping things as is generates return business. What a great product... selling the same thing over & over again.

Not to mention, having exclusive access to these files makes it possible to have first dibs on some really rare cars and the possibility for researching the whereabouts of certain rare cars.
(when I documented my RA 'Bird in the early '90s, I received a call from JM asking if I wanted to sell it).

The database idea is terrific. Yes, it would require a lot of work but imagine the possibilities. People would no doubt pay for additional information. If these files were truly being used for the good of the hobby, one would think that there would be an effort to provide more research into what these files offer (specific production breakdown). We all have seen the Engine Production Logs but, do these really represent exactly how many cars were made?

Fred Simmonds did some great research in the 80s w/these files. Many have the spreadsheets he produced showing specific breakdowns for certain models. No one paid him to do this. Obviously, if he were able to do this, it is possible to do it for other years/models.

In the end, we can critique all we want to; It really has no bearing on what will result.
The price for a cheap photo copy could be raised to $1000 and people would still pay it.

The issue is not about value; it's about the potential for expanding the value these files represent to the enthusiast. How many people do you think would offer their time for free to sort through the files and build a database? I'm guessing quite a few. Of course, if specific details were provided as to production breakdown, they could only be sold once (sorta like the Engine Production Logs and Fred Simmonds spreadsheets).

Anyhow. Just my two cents.

good points going one step further maybe Jim could offer two different packages one like he does now and one that as you stated would be harder to scam that way owners have an option.

I can appreciate what you have.....the 1967 ram air 400 firebird that is on that large poster from the 1980s was my personal car

[email protected]

[MikeNoun]

I managed an entire document imaging system for Accounts Payable for my company, from programming to the training of users. The process of capturing the data off an image is called Optical Character Recognition (OCR). The OCR software is set to recognize specific fields off a document, and then those fields are captured and stored in the database. Any anomolies or errors are kicked out for review, and a person reviews the errors and corrects them.

Scanning in the documents is as fast as the scanner itself. Reviewing each document takes time of course. However, since the Pontiac invoices all have the same format, with the date(s) and option codes in the same area (or close to) on every invoice, this becomes automated. The data is captured and the database is updated, then you can run sorts and reports off that data. And again, any anomolies are kicked out for review.

[bdk1976]

Perhaps the most important reason for digitizing the records would be for backup purposes. All it would take is a fire or other disaster and the records would be gone for good.

I imagine digitizing all of the records wouldn't be an inexpensive proposition, but the information could be used to write the absolute definitive book on muscle-era Pontiacs....I also wouldn't be completely shocked if there was a grant available to help out due to the historical importance of this information (and a (pseudo-?) relationship with Government Motors). Hell, I can't believe some of the federal grants that I see handed out on a regular basis in my job!

[MikeNoun]

I should probably add, the beauty of document imaging (with data capture) is that the data off the invoice is stored in a database. Regular document imaging just captures the whole image, while data capture would capture the invoice date, VIN, dealer codes, etc, and store it all in a database. Yes, this would be ideal for the PHS invoices. The entire invoice would be saved as a TIFF image, and the data off the invoice would be stored.

Lookups would only take a couple seconds. You could run sorts, selections (how many RAIV GTO's were made in Liberty Blue, etc.), and the original image is always available too.

The invoices would have to be printed on paper, then you simply load up the scanner with 100 or so invoices at a time, and they get mapped and stored. Typically, you get a 50% error rate until all the variances are accounted for, then ideally you get 90% throughput. The other 10% would just have to be reviewed and manually input (bad scans, fuzzy invoices, etc).

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I managed an entire document imaging system for Accounts Payable for my company, from programming to the training of users. The process of capturing the data off an image is called Optical Character Recognition (OCR). The OCR software is set to recognize specific fields off a document, and then those fields are captured and stored in the database. Any anomolies or errors are kicked out for review, and a person reviews the errors and corrects them.

Scanning in the documents is as fast as the scanner itself. Reviewing each document takes time of course. However, since the Pontiac invoices all have the same format, with the date(s) and option codes in the same area (or close to) on every invoice, this becomes automated. The data is captured and the database is updated, then you can run sorts and reports off that data. And again, any anomolies are kicked out for review.

Mike, you are correct. This process is OCR; however, there may be other ways to get the data depending on the format in which it exists now. If the Microfiche reader displays the image on a computer screen, you can "screen scrape" the data. Assuming this is not the case, then you'd want to print each PHS Billing History for use in an automated "flat bed" scanner that can process 26-43 Pages per minute. These can be rented or you can pay for the service. It can be automatically run through OCR at that time or later.

A database is creaeted and the data mapping is an exercise that happens once for each separate format (here there would not be many). Upload the data to the database once scanned/converted and you're almost there.

The idea of offering a new service level, I believe, is a good one. Certainly, Jim will need to protect his information. For example, a customer could ask: "how many 1969 GTOs were equipped like mine?" There could be multiple levels of detail (hence multiple levels / costs of service depending on how detailed the customer or Jim decides to go). High level options - engine, trans, wheels, color. Full build sheet option comparison. Information could be sent with packet as a summary page with information like this:


1969 GTOs equipped like yours (high level detail listed) = 432

• 350 HP engine
• Automatic floor shift
• Rally II wheels
• Red
• Black Cordova top
• A/C

1969 GTO equipped like yours (full detail) = 42

• High level detail, Pluse
• Other option breakdown
• Radio
• console
• A/C
• luggage lamp
• reclining seat.....

Two different prices.

This does not provide ALL information about a category breakdown that could be used by anyone. This is merely a comparison of YOUR car to all cars. There would always be the option to produce additional breakdowns by category, as mentioned above...

[Stuart]

One thing about scanning the documents is there are plenty of hand written (hand scribbled) notes and references to memos on them that most likely would still have to be entered by hand.

The thing I've always wondered is if any of those memos still exist. I know the PHS for my car has a couple hand written references along the line of "see memo xxxx." They would probably better explain how and why a particular car was built the way it was.