[GT182]

I'm with Charles 100% on that. If you don't do your homework and don't find out what's causing your overheating, then buy an aluminum radiator, you're just wasting money you could be spending on something you need more for your restoration. And buy telling these untruths you're putting money in someone else's pocket, and you don't even get to benefit from it. LOL

There's only two things about an aluminum radiator that lures you in. It saves weight, and has larger tubes in it. And I might add, far less tubes than a stock radiator... 3 or 4 core. Yeah it might move more water, but that's not always a good thing. Aluminum doesn't transfer heat like copper and brass do. It's kinda like the days of aluminum wiring... it caused more problems in the long run.

My radiator guy proved that to a guy from Maryland that was having overheating issues with his street/strip car... with an aluminum radiator. He recored his stock radiator it with the same core I have now. The guy said he was crazy, it wouldn't cool better than the aluminum would. So Dick said if it doesn't cool better than your aluminum radiator, it's free. They did the recore and the guy went home and put the recored stock radiator back in his car. Next day he came in and paid the money he owed. Said his car never ran so cool in all the time he owned it. So much for aluminum. True story right from 'The Man' himself... I did not make it up.

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Wouldn't want to make a little wager on that would you?



You didn't either!

It's time to stop spreading untruths and spending other peoples money here.
A properly setup Pontiac will run as cool as any other make, BUT you must do your homework properly to find and fix the problem.

Charles

I see Charles knows everyone's combo, driving conditions, and feels his thoughts should be everyone elses..
Tell me Charles, what is my primary use of my car, my set up, and how I drive? Then tell me how that stock rad should be just fine with some "homework"...

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by GT182

I'm with Charles 100% on that. If you don't do your homework and don't find out what's causing your overheating, then buy an aluminum radiator, you're just wasting money you could be spending on something you need more for your restoration. And buy telling these untruths you're putting money in someone else's pocket, and you don't even get to benefit from it. LOL

There's only two things about an aluminum radiator that lures you in. It saves weight, and has larger tubes in it. And I might add, far less tubes than a stock radiator... 3 or 4 core. Yeah it might move more water, but that's not always a good thing. Aluminum doesn't transfer heat like copper and brass do. It's kinda like the days of aluminum wiring... it caused more problems in the long run.

My radiator guy proved that to a guy from Maryland that was having overheating issues with his street/strip car... with an aluminum radiator. He recored his stock radiator it with the same core I have now. The guy said he was crazy, it wouldn't cool better than the aluminum would. So Dick said if it doesn't cool better than your aluminum radiator, it's free. They did the recore and the guy went home and put the recored stock radiator back in his car. Next day he came in and paid the money he owed. Said his car never ran so cool in all the time he owned it. So much for aluminum. True story right from 'The Man' himself... I did not make it up.

Gary, I rarely disagree with you on most issues...and I'm not doubting your story...
keep up the good work...

[george kujanski]

Form a material properties table:

Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of 237 Watts per meter per degree C.

Copper has a thermal conductivity of 410 Watts per meter per degree C.

Copper conducts heat better.

George

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Form a material properties table:

Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of 237 Watts per meter per degree C.

Copper has a thermal conductivity of 410 Watts per meter per degree C.

Copper conducts heat better.

George

Yes, agreed. But copper does not have the strength of aluminum therefore larger tubes and dissipates heat better by design...far superior...and no solder "hot spots"...

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by T A 70

I see Charles knows everyone's combo, driving conditions, and feels his thoughts should be everyone elses..
Tell me Charles, what is my primary use of my car, my set up, and how I drive? Then tell me how that stock rad should be just fine with some "homework"...

Cut to the crux of the matter.

1) These cars were not built with aluminum radiators.
2) They DID NOT overheat when new.
3) Copper does conduct heat better than aluminum.
4) Aluminum twice the price of copper radiators.
5) People claim 30° cooling improvement after they spent money to compensate for a problem different than the radiator.
6) They WILL NOT overheat now, even with the crappy gas available.
7) You must make sure you have the proper pump, clearance and flow for adequate cooling, just like any other automobile. Our Pontiac's are just a wee bit different in engineering design on the pumps.

Trust me here, I tell the honest truth, if it were not for George Kujanski making me think and get my head out of my arse, I would be chasing the elusive solution still! Fifteen years with a defective pump and countless nights and dollars trying to come to a logical conclusion, only to find out that an impeller in a large cavity will NOT function as it should. And all I had to do was LOOK at it GOOD. That is homework!

All of the above reasons and a few more I'm sure I did not mention, do not justify telling people that changing to an aluminum radiator is a panacea that will fix all of your problems. It just ain't so!

Respectfully folks, let's stop telling "old wives tales".

Again, that being said,

It's time to stop spreading untruths and spending other peoples money here.
A properly setup Pontiac will run as cool as any other make, BUT you must do your homework properly to find and fix the problem.

Question: Why on earth would I be able to say that numerous others have NOT needed to have an aluminum radiator to make a Pontiac V8 run cool.

Answer: Because it is true!

Tell me Charles, what is my primary use of my car, my set up, and how I drive? Then tell me how that stock rad should be just fine with some "homework"...

I did not try to tell you that, but did you inquire about those same things before making a blanket statement?

I apologize to 3 duece 64 and the moderators for hijacking your thread.

Charles

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Cut to the crux of the matter.

1) These cars were not built with aluminum radiators. Or big cams, strip ported heads and unleaded fuel..
2) They DID NOT overheat when new. Yes, they did... I was there...
3) Copper does conduct heat better than aluminum. Aluminum has larger volume..and better design...
4) Aluminum twice the price of copper radiators. So? They are better...some of us don't mind spending $ for a superior product..
5) People claim 30° cooling improvement after they spent money to compensate for a problem different than the radiator. They work, get over it!
6) They WILL NOT overheat now, even with the crappy gas available.
7) You must make sure you have the proper pump, clearance and flow for adequate cooling, just like any other automobile. Our Pontiac's are just a wee bit different in engineering design on the pumps. Then what? Call you?
Trust me here, I tell the honest truth, if it were not for George Kujanski making me think and get my head out of my arse, I would be chasing the elusive solution still! Fifteen years with a defective pump and countless nights and dollars trying to come to a logical conclusion, only to find out that an impeller in a large cavity will NOT function as it should.
Only 15 years?
Charles

I guess I'd be frustrated too...

[Old Goat 67]

And, we have Chris Cassperson to thank for putting us all together!

Charles

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

And, we have Chris Cassperson to thank for putting us all together!

Charles

Hey, if it wasn't for me you'd still be under 3000 posts..

[Old Goat 67]

So what?

And this comes from the same place as the woman who said "Don't bother reading the bill, when it passes we'll tell you whats in it."

Never mind, I GOT it.

[Ragtop Man]

I always wonder when folks mix up leftover parts from different generations... it's really asking for it.

The vacuum can was shot, and probably the timing is was not advancing fully. It is very easy to get another vacuum leak when swapping manifolds, there is no way to know how much the heads have been milled, what condition the new manny is in, etc. Sealing requires a lot of careful inspection and preparation.

On an old Pontiac manifold -- and this came up in another thread down the board in the big car section -- if the choke tube that goes through the crossover has a leak (46 years, ya think?) I can almost promise you that you have a West Virgina EGR system at work.

Plus, unless the heads have been off the 455, you don't know for sure the head gaskets are sealing fully, or if the valve job is any good. You need to check compression, do the leakdown and check the cooling system for traces of combustion gas. Are the carbs calibrated for a 455? If you pull a tune up from a 389 and think it will feed an extra 66 cubes... not so much.

Everyone who can fog a mirror knows now that you have to check impeller clearance religiously and get it perfect or you're trying to mix margaritas in a swimming pool. And PS is it the right impeller? What is the pulley ratio? And do you know for sure you have bled ALL the air from the system and there are no steam pockets still sizzling in there.

Tracking all that down takes time, it ain't no fun, but it costs a lot less than new radiators.

[Old Goat 67]

All good info Ragtop,

But, this tickled my funny bone.

On an old Pontiac manifold -- and this came up in another thread down the board in the big car section -- if the choke tube that goes through the crossover has a leak (46 years, ya think?) I can almost promise you that you have a West Virgina EGR system at work.

I love it, for one. But, I don't live in WV. Now, if we said coona$$, yeah I could relate to that!

Charles

[GT182]

Originally Posted by T A 70

Yes, agreed. But copper does not have the strength of aluminum therefore larger tubes and dissipates heat better by design...far superior...and no solder "hot spots"...

Now that's the best bunch of BS I've ever heard. It's time you came out of that fog you're in T A. The strength of aluminum has nothing to do with heat dissipation. I think you best listen and read what George K has said. I doubt if you're an engineer as he was.... he knows his stuff and seeing he does, the smart ones of here listen to/read what he says. Charles is knows his stuff too.... you see he has owned his GTO since it was new. And I bet he knows every nut, bolt and little quirk that can go wrong. As a matter of fact, he doesn't have an over heating issue. He doesn't use an aluminum radiator, and neither did Pontiac.

Sorry Don that your thread has taken a turn away from your intended purpose. I applogise for getting into this mess on radiators and leading things astray.

I'm just gonna sit back and watch from now on.....

[3 Deuce 64]

Well in spite of of some garbage deposited I can gleam off the good. The fact is some didn't seem to read what I originally posted. The original 4 core HD Tri Power Rad worked and cooled fine with the 389 and has for me since 1977 when I bought the car. This is NOT my first Pontiac . I bought my first GTO in 1974 a 67 Ram Air car it constantly ran in the 200 * range . It took me some time to figure out that it needed a fan shroud. In the years time fame I had dragged home at least 20 more A bodies some of them had shrouds so I started experimenting first thing was to ditch the T stat not too much help there but as soon as I added a shroud to the GTO I dropped 15* on a normal day . Over the past 37 years I have owned 21 or 22 GTOs and close to if not over 200 A bodies . I have mixed and matched late and early both ways over that time frame .I have a 64 389 with 48 heads on it no issues , a 428 with an early wrap and no issues and have had several other combos all on good old copper cooling systems with no issues . I guess I was just looking for some quick knowledge here . I had a cooling system that was working fine the variable here that I'm leaning to is the 65 intake it's the only given I had no prior information on. I had the 455 running in the Bonnie before I pulled it I started it and ran it for three days before I pulled it ran 15 gallons of fuel through it idling it and running it. though it didn't have gages the idiot lights which worked didn't come on for overheating. with the original 4 v intake the motor ran smooth as silk no surging etc. all the other components related to the swap were working fine in the previous application .There was a mention of the carbs to the 455. It runs like a raped ape It will melt the tires in 1st and 2nd no problem with fuel delivery . I'm looking for a vacuum leak. I did a quick test the other day with a small torch because my big tanks are empty at the moment have to get them filled. If I have a vacuum leak it will run lean causing an over heating problem. I don't have any more latter tri power intakes only 64s so I'm at the point I'm going to pull a unit I know is good and switch it. If that cures the problem then I have to check gaskets or look for a crack in the intake or choke tubes .One more note I am back to the original water pump took off the re man and ordered in a new one but both of those had shorter impeller fins than the original by about 1/4 inch .Thanks to all that have responded

[GT182]

Wow... sure sounds like a vacuum leak to me. Good luck and I hope you find it soon. I'm sure you will when you do, but let us know. Different places a leak pops up and everyone hears obout it the better off everyone is when they have a problem.

That original pump is the only way to go Don. Were the original divider plates ok and could you use them?

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by GT182

Now that's the best bunch of BS I've ever heard. It's time you came out of that fog you're in T A. The strength of aluminum has nothing to do with heat dissipation. I think you best listen and read what George K has said. I doubt if you're an engineer as he was.... he knows his stuff and seeing he does, the smart ones of here listen to/read what he says. Charles is knows his stuff too.... you see he has owned his GTO since it was new. And I bet he knows every nut, bolt and little quirk that can go wrong. As a matter of fact, he doesn't have an over heating issue. He doesn't use an aluminum radiator, and neither did Pontiac.

Sorry Don that your thread has taken a turn away from your intended purpose. I applogise for getting into this mess on radiators and leading things astray.

I'm just gonna sit back and watch from now on.....

The strength allows for larger tubes/better design/heat dissipation...go back and READ what I posted.
As for all the other BS you posted..stfu....
George posted thermal conductivity comparisons only and I agreed with him. You post assumptions and hearsay...(and eyeballs)..

[george kujanski]

Question in my mind....several members have reported cooling improvements when installing a new aluminum radiator, yet, the thermal conductivity of copper (and probably brass, being an alloy of copper) is about twice as good.

Could it be the previous rad was clogged, the new rad has larger tubes for better flow, more surface area, etc.

If the claim is true, I would think the improvement would be one of the above. Any thoughts?

I wonder if anyone has done a A/B comparison using rads with similar dimensions/construction?

george

[T A 70]

Pretty interesting read....conclusively....design more effective than material...
http://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html..._vs_copper.php

[3 Deuce 64]

Originally Posted by T A 70

Pretty interesting read....conclusively....design more effective than material...
http://www.hotrodhotline.com/md/html..._vs_copper.php

I got this out of what I read : " It is important to note that this decision was based solely on financial savings and should not be confused with more efficient. "

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by 3 Deuce 64

I got this out of what I read : " It is important to note that this decision was based solely on financial savings and should not be confused with more efficient. "

Yes, based on cost, it is cheaper to use alum vs copper..and it's lighter as well..

This is key:


"So what did U.S. Radiator learn? First and foremost, they discovered that where the radiator is concerned core design and NOT material had the greatest effect on temperature drop."