[moto-d]

Seriously, when's the last time you saw a "LeMans" or "Tempest" part for sale at a swap meet? Once it leaves the car, whether it's steering column, dash or bucket seat, it becomes a "GTO" part, usually with absurd price to match. I'm waiting for the guy that's selling that rarest of '67 GTO hoods: the flat one, without the scoop.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by trailwing

If I ever win the lottery, I'll buy a nice judge and clone it into a LeMans. That's what the cool people drive anyway.

You got that right.

[vidguy]

X2 to what indymanjoe and trailwing said.. and:

I think the general consensus is that cloning isn't a big deal as long as you aren't out to rip anyone off through misrepresentation. The only people that hate cloning or ask why anyone would do it are the ones who can actually afford the real thing

Agreed...

It seems to me most of the cloning stories I read are from guys that intend to sell the car, Maybe not under false pretenses, but the cloning is a money making project. Not a "Drive the car and keep it and enjoy it" project..

And what most don't seem to do is "Clone" the mechanicals.. I've even seen a Judge clone with a 350.

In any case I prefer to drive and enjoy my cars and accept the wear and tear. I have found that if you drive a car, and get attached to it, you come to love a car for what it is not what it looks like..

[68lemansman]

[QUOTE=PontGuy;4388647]I found it a whole lot more challenging to find good Lemans-specific parts than GTO equivalents. The valence, grills, front running lamps, etc. are not re-popped. Luckily I was able to chase down NOS Lemans badges for the ones that are not being reproduced. Even parts like door latches- nobody lists them for a 69 Lemans and I discovered that mine were different than for a GTO. I found out by trial and error that 69 Chevelle latches fit perfectly though.


I would have to agree! My 68 lemans too with the front valence,rear bumper, bumper brackets no repops.I just put my new rear bumper on and new tailights. They don't even make the taillight lense gasket for lemans but they make it for the gto. So maybe it is easier to get gto parts than it is to get lemans.

[carbking]

For those of you who MUST clone, be very careful. In some states, it is a class A felony punishable by jail time AND confiscation of the vehicle if you get caught.

Check your state DMV regulations.

Jon.

[DarthBubba]

Originally Posted by 68lemansman

So maybe it is easier to get gto parts than it is to get lemans.

Try Tempest parts!

[facn8me]

Originally Posted by carbking

For those of you who MUST clone, be very careful. In some states, it is a class A felony punishable by jail time AND confiscation of the vehicle if you get caught.

Check your state DMV regulations.

Jon.

For attempting to pass it off as original or just putting GTO repop hood on a lemans. I'm guessing you mean the fraud part and I'm betting all fiddy states frown on it.

[J GLASGO]

Considering that PHS is available for Pontiacs,how is somebody going to represent a clone as original? My 70 GTO that i added the Judge option,and the RA 4 option,is a dead nuts duplicate of an original car.However,considering that PHS is available,there is no concern of passing it off as an original RA4 Judge. You know what i hate? Half a$$ done clones.As far as someone converting a GTO to A LeMans,GMAFB.GTO,s are what made Pontiacs GREAT,not Tempest,s,and Lemans,s. I do like the 70-72 Lemans,s,and actually think they are better looking than the Gto,s,but they are still not a gto. How many mint condition Lemans,s have you looked at,at said,"Damn,if it was only a GTO"

[gtohurstjudge]

Not everyone builds a "clone" to rip someone off or sell the car for more money.
I added the Judge option to my car 36 years ago and have been enjoying it ever since.
Back then a real Judge convertible was impossible to locate unless you just happened to know of one in your hometown for sale(lots of luck with that!) With only 108 built there were only two per state......lots of luck finding one for sale(they weren't in Hemmings) Back then I considered it adding an option, like cruise control or A/C, and it was rather an inexpensive option at that.....A/C cost more! The word clone regarding a Judge had not been invented
yet. In 1990, an editorial in High Performance Pontiac magazine coined the word "clone"
in reference to my car which they had seen at the POCI convention in Kansas City, so I
guess my car is the origin or the word clone regarding adding the Judge option. So far I haven't seen a downside to owning a Judge clone and after 36 years I should know if there
was one by now. No, I haven't gotten rich selling my car for 300K, but that wasn't what
I bought my GTO for in the first place. I actually drive my car, so being a clone I can drive it in traffic without having a heart attack, and I can actually afford the insurance on it. Yes,
people ask if it's real when they see it, and I tell them it is not a Judge from the factory....
this can be a little irritating depending on what mood I'm in, but guess what......the owners
of real Judge convertibles get asked the same question and probably get more irritated than I do, because they have megadollars tied up in them and they consider such a question
a serious insult. I have no regrets about what I did 36 years ago and would do it again
without hesitation if I had it to do over.

[J GLASGO]

My point exactly. How much could you enjoy driving it if it was worth 300g,s?

[sal70lemans]

I see nothing wrong with adding some of the "more muscle" GTO accents to a Lemans or Tempest. Which is what I did with mine and I don't mind a nicely done full-on clone either.



Most people are just general fans of the muscle car era looks and don't get hung up on the details.

Scott

[bobzdar]

I guess I don't get the allure of the judge. It is literally some stickers, a glove box emblem and a wing. Most of you laugh at the guys that do that on their civics, but somehow its sacred on a pontiac? Get over it. The value of a car to me is what it would cost to duplicate, so for a couple hundred dollars I can turn any gto into the exact functional and cosmetic quivalent of a 'real' judge. Lot more expensive to turn an automatic into a 4 speed or a ra3 into a ra4, so the originals are rightly worth a lot more. A car being numbers matching or all original won't make it ride any nicer or go any faster, so I'll leave that to the guys that rather wipe their car with a diaper than actually use that machine for what it was made for.

[PontGuy]

When I became old enough to drive in the late 70's the TA's were the hot ticket. But I didn't know anyone back then that actually had enough money to own one, or had parents that would let them have one. The real, pre-smog muscecars like the GTO were getting old enough so they were getting pretty ragged. I knew guys that had them, but all were driven hard and had become rattle-traps. And the Judge was already a timeworn silly GTO gimmick- I can still remember the commercials. Who would have known back then what those stickers would be worth now. But there were plenty of really nice and affordable Lemans around, and Olds Cutlass, and Malibu Chevelles, etc. And that's what most of us drove.

In 1978 my wife-to-be bought a green Sport Lemans just like yours Sal70, added Cragers and dual exhaust, and it was really a nice ride for the day. Even with the stock 350 it was much faster than most of the cars being produced by then. And it looked great.

Don't get me wrong, I like GTO's, even owned one since then, but the Lemans has a special place too. And they are all but gone. So for some of us there is plenty of reason not to clone a Lemans into a GTO.

Sal70 yours has got to be one of the nicest examples that I've seen in a long time!

Walt

[Bet Winner]

I'm reposting this video. It speaks of the history behind a collectible and gives some great examples of how that changes its worth. It can also be used to explain why original parts are so sought after. The history or origin rules when it comes to collectibles.

Originally Posted by rohrt

This video may help explain the phychology behind an original and a copy.

http://www.wimp.com/pleasureorigins/

I appreciate a nice LeMans/Tempest/Custom S also. I appreciate its history.

[gtohurstjudge]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

I'm reposting this video. It speaks of the history behind a collectible and gives some great examples of how that changes its worth. It can also be used to explain why original parts are so sought after. The history or origin rules when it comes to collectibles.



I appreciate a nice LeMans/Tempest/Custom S also. I appreciate its history.

Very interesting video..........Not all he says applies to cars however......the
difference between cars and a painting by someone famous is that in many cases when
you are looking at a restored rare car you are looking at a car that only retains a few of
it's original parts. Some real Judges restored from basket case rust buckets retain litlle
more of their born with sheet metal than the cowl, and in many cases the only original
sheet metal on the car is the vin tag. In a case like that you are really paying for the
rights to the phs docs, not for any real provenance. Now a mint unrestored rare car
with it's original parts would be comparable to a rare painting and should be held with
the utmost regard. Personally I would rather own a clone with original 69 parts on it than
a real Judge with repro sheet metal and trim parts hanging all over it.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

in many cases when you are looking at a restored rare car you are looking at a car that only retains a few of it's original parts. Some real Judges restored from basket case rust buckets retain litlle more of their born with sheet metal than the cowl, and in many cases the only original sheet metal on the car is the vin tag....

I agree that the origin of such a car is questionable with so many nonoriginal parts. If the body and drive train are intact, it is probably a different story.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by DarthBubba

Try Tempest parts!

Or a Darksider!

When I built my vette it was pick up a catalog and order the part I needed. The GP took 6 years to scrounge up NOS pieces.

-Harry

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by sal70lemans

I see nothing wrong with adding some of the "more muscle" GTO accents to a Lemans or Tempest. Which is what I did with mine and I don't mind a nicely done full-on clone either.



Most people are just general fans of the muscle car era looks and don't get hung up on the details.

Scott

i really like the looks of this car. i love the green. very nice

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by Bet Winner

I'm reposting this video. It speaks of the history behind a collectible and gives some great examples of how that changes its worth. It can also be used to explain why original parts are so sought after. The history or origin rules when it comes to collectibles.



I appreciate a nice LeMans/Tempest/Custom S also. I appreciate its history.

"It was the same art physically, but the history had changed." For me, that was the essence of the video.

[6ragtop8]

Some say to COPY is the greatest compliment! I say if you disclose any modifications made to a car at time of sale no foul! With authentic cars bringing 10 times or more than when new, not many can afford to own a real Judge.