[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by David Jones

Having owned 4 GM products that all required some sort of service, repair or replacement because of poor engineering or poor quality I'm not really open to testing for their new found greatness with $30-40,000 of my own cash.
The Corolla/Cruze inventory around Grand Meadow, Mn. not withstanding.
Thank you though.

Well said.

IMO, I'd have the Honda fixed; it might just be $500 vs how big of a car payment ?

Hondas have a rep for going 250K + without too many repairs.

[Old Blue 66]

My brother in law and his wife bought a Venza about a year ago. I dont talk to them often but will see then saturday. I can ask them about their experiance with the car.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by The Champ

FWIW - spelling out a fair deal on a Toyota Venza 6 cyl with "Preferred Premium Accessory Package"...

MSRP = $30,142.00

Invoice = $27,386.00

"True Market Value" for Pleasant Grove, AL (per Edmunds) = $27,773.00

The "True Market Value" shows a regional adjustment for Pleasant Grove of -$207.00, which is already reflected in the price above.

Elgin, IL would be less than $100.00 more because of regional adjustments.

I would not pay a dime over what Edmunds is saying is the TMV - it's year end closeout time and the dealer will still be getting his holdback. I'd probably be looking for a deal at invoice - based on the current sales slump by Toyota nationwide.

And before you start feeling sorry for the dealer - he's making much more than what appears to be a $300.00 profit on the sale at TMV because of the dealer holdback.

If you are not familar with dealer holdback's - from Edmund's:



Toyota holdback is 2% of invoice - so the dealer would make around $550.00 selling this Venza at invoice.

My Dad spent 45+ years in the car business. I am very familar with how the system works.

Edit - I thought you'd posted a price of $30,000. The above info was meant to answer your question in detail. Build your exact car at edmunds and check on the results for TMV and Invoice. Offer invoice.

You didnt "build" his car or you would have come to a much higher msrp.
his msrp, set by Toyota is 38K , Its got just about every option on it.
I said this way back in post #6 >>>"That Venza you are looking at is High end rig. There is about 3500 between the invoice and the MSRP, with about 760 in destination ".

This is the number the original post was about.

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

So what was the last year GM car that you purchased?

I think post #14 covered pretty well.

2003 GMC 1500 was my last one. I happily got rid of it at 28,000 miles on it if I remember correctly. I had the anti-lock controller replaced (warranty) a few miles before that and began to notice that the steering was developing the same loose knocking feeling that my 1999 GMC 1500 had and I bailed out. The 1999 got a new anti-lock controller while I had it also that I got to pay for. Both trucks (extended cabs of the same body style) had rear seat side windows that whistled relentlessly. Great drivetrains though. I went to a 2005 Tundra double cab and in the 120,000 miles I had it nothing broke. My 16 year old son drives it now. I liked it so much when I willed it to my son I found a low mileage 2006 Tundra D/C and got it. With 63,000 miles now I've done nothing but drive it. Well, pump gas (a lot) into it..........

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

Cool, the XC60 wasn't out then, came out in 2010. Sorry David, didn't mean to hijack your thread

No problem. Both the BMW and the Volvo are more than I want to go and at service time.....OUCH. Great vehicles.

[Kyflier]

Just so ya know, they both have warranties for 5 years and 50k with all maint included lol, of course after that's over....your right, a little pricey, although nothing like the 2500 or so per year upkeep on the Maserati lol

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Well said.

IMO, I'd have the Honda fixed; it might just be $500 vs how big of a car payment ?

Hondas have a rep for going 250K + without too many repairs.

Actually there is nothing at all wrong with the Honda. At nearly 100,000 miles it's fine, just a tad to big for our situation now and I suspect that after about 7 years the wife is a bit tired of it. What she needs is a smaller car and a trailer to haul all of the crap she likes to drag around. Blankets. Gotta be 50 movies in the thing and I don't think the DVD player has been on in 2 years (I've NEVER seen a movie in it....). 2 or 3 pair of shoes. Sweaters. Jackets. Snacks. A small garbage can (generally full). Phone books. Water bottles stuck in every cubby. on and on and on...........

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

Just so ya know, they both have warranties for 5 years and 50k with all maint included lol, of course after that's over....your right, a little pricey, although nothing like the 2500 or so per year upkeep on the Maserati lol

I can see Glenda whooping up at her office in a new Maserati........

[Kyflier]

She'd probably look great in the new Gran Turismo Conv. lol.......you better not let her see that post about her van bein a mess or you might be sleepin with the cars in the garage....lol

[David Jones]

I gripe (uselessly) about the way she keeps it all the time. I keep it washed outside and she keeps it full inside. Whats up with the Buick port holes in the Maserati's? I noticed about 8-10 Maserati's in Miami Beach last year (twice yearly trade show) with the portholes. At least they were on straight, not like the Auto Zone port holes people put on their rides while they're drunk.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by David Jones

Thanks Champ.
I believe if you'll look back Edmunds had already been mentioned a few times when you jumped in to save the thread.
Your Dad sold Toyota's?

David

I was well aware that you'd been told about Edmunds before I ever posted on this thread. In my first post - I assumed that you would have already "built" your car and knew what the invoice and TMV were.

My first post was an attempt to give you a bargaining strategy with the Toyota dealer. Understanding their current economics - I was attempting to encourage you to negotiate hard and not fall into the "We are Toyota, we sell everything and dont have to discount" trap that many U.S consumers do.

Evidently my honest attempt to help was missed because I mentioned that you might want to consider test driving another similar vehicle that has been extremely well received by many U.S. consumers.

My last post was in direct response to your repeated questioning:

So I'm guessing after all this typing of opinion and general info sharing that you don't have info to help me in my purchase of a Venza?

and again:

How have you answered my question for me?

Once again - my advice is to pay absolutely no more than TMV as per Edmunds. But I would personally be targeting invoice price as a fair price in today's market for the Venza.

I sincerely was trying to help. I apologize for getting a little upset when you and Blue started making some disparaging comments about GM products when I had made such a point not to disparage Toyota in any way, shape of form - as I know that you are a fan of their products.

[David Jones]

Weird. From the words you used one could imagine that you might have been trying to simply sell me a Chevy.
Really bad....down...desperate (twice)...plunged....even Chrysler...all sound a bit disparaging to me.
I think most of what you know about Toyota's economics might have been included in a book by Carlos Castaneda from a few years ago.
Thanks though.

[Kyflier]

It's amazing to me how many people know so much about buying and selling cars, yet they don't work in the industry. It's like reading here every day and then claiming to be the best engine builder/tuner in the world. I love it when someone tells me that Kelly Blue book says their trade is worth X. I said not a problem, get them to write you a check for it....all these sites are just guides, nothing more. Cars are worth what people are willing to pay for them, nothing more. We compete head to head with dealers in Columbus. Those dealers choose to sell well into their holdback. Thats not a problem, we don't. We offer pick up and delivery, free car washes anytime you want, as many as you want, free loaner cars and valet/shuttle service. Those things cost money. Myself, I get paid on what we make above invoice. If we negotiate down to invoice, I don't make a dime. You people work for a living, and expect to get paid, so do I. I offer a fair price to my customers and customer service above and beyond most. Because we own a Toyota store, David can rest assured he'll get a good deal on one. He and I have shared a ton of info outside this drama laden thread. He's a first class guy.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by David Jones

Weird. From the words you used one could imagine that you might have been trying to simply sell me a Chevy.
Really bad....down...desperate (twice)...plunged....even Chrysler...all sound a bit disparaging to me.
I think most of what you know about Toyota's economics might have been included in a book by Carlos Castaneda from a few years ago.
Thanks though.

David

You are reading way to much into my earlier comments. Did I say anywhere in this thread that Toyota builds a bad product? Did I say they had a bad repair record in this thread? Did I say that the Venza is a bad design?

Quite simply, no, I did not.

Old Blue made the post about "We are Toyota, we sell everything and dont have to discount" - I agreed that that had been the case for years, but not now.

I posted about Toyota's sales being down, because they are down - significantly. That isn't my opinion - that is documented fact. Chrysler sold more cars than Toyota last month - when is the last time that happened (I really don't know, but I'd bet it's been a decade or more). Toyota wants their market share back - how do they do that?

Toyota is discounting their products today in ways that haven't been done before.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

It's amazing to me how many people know so much about buying and selling cars, yet they don't work in the industry.

FWIW - I sold cars (Cadillac/Chevy/Subaru). My brother sold cars (Cadillac/Saturn/Toyota/Nissan). My Dad sold cars (Oldsmobile/Cadillac/Buick/Pontiac/GMC/AMC/Opel/Renault).

I no longer sell cars, but still work on a daily basis with Ford/GM/Chrysler/Nissan/Toyota dealers in a related industry.

I enjoyed working in the automotive industry as I am passionate about cars and I liked working with customers to help them find the right vehicle for their needs - but the hours (as you know) suck, and the income isn't always stable. In my new position -my hours are much better (8 - 5, no weekends, all holidays off) and my income is much greater.

If I could make what I do now and have those hours I'd go right back into selling cars today!

I have great respect for automobile sales people that take their profession seriously (as it appears you do). I have a very low tolerance for sales people that don't treat customers with respect or know their product.

[Kyflier]

Thank you Champ, but the one BIG thing your missing about Toyota sales being down has nothing to do with the cars or dealers. Remember the Sunami? It wiped out total factories that supplied electronics for alot of those cars, check Honda sales as well, they are down too. Alot of it has to do with available inventory.

I worked 25 years in the paper industry, and I agree, if I could make the same money, and work 8 to 5, I'd be out of here too. It's a great business, but the hours are K-I-L-L-E-R.....

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

It's amazing to me how many people know so much about buying and selling cars, yet they don't work in the industry. It's like reading here every day and then claiming to be the best engine builder/tuner in the world. I love it when someone tells me that Kelly Blue book says their trade is worth X. I said not a problem, get them to write you a check for it....all these sites are just guides, nothing more. Cars are worth what people are willing to pay for them, nothing more. We compete head to head with dealers in Columbus. Those dealers choose to sell well into their holdback. Thats not a problem, we don't. We offer pick up and delivery, free car washes anytime you want, as many as you want, free loaner cars and valet/shuttle service. Those things cost money. Myself, I get paid on what we make above invoice. If we negotiate down to invoice, I don't make a dime. You people work for a living, and expect to get paid, so do I. I offer a fair price to my customers and customer service above and beyond most. Because we own a Toyota store, David can rest assured he'll get a good deal on one. He and I have shared a ton of info outside this drama laden thread. He's a first class guy.

With all do respect, after spending 6 years selling cars (Fords) I may not know it all but I know quite a bit. If your not getting paid at least a 'Minni" for selling at invoice, someone is screwing with you. When we sold at invoice (and you do a lot selling new Ford cars) at least we made $150 for the time. You must be on some sort of a salary if you dont get paid when you sell a car.

Invoice is as common of a term when selling cars as is Rallye Wheels to most Pontiacs. This is the reason why I left the bussines. Too much information out there. When a customer comes in and has all the information as to the invoice cost that you do, how do you make money? Steal from the trade? May be, but thats not easy either.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

Thank you Champ, but the one BIG thing your missing about Toyota sales being down has nothing to do with the cars or dealers. Remember the Sunami? It wiped out total factories that supplied electronics for alot of those cars, check Honda sales as well, they are down too. Alot of it has to do with available inventory.
I worked 25 years in the paper industry, and I agree, if I could make the same money, and work 8 to 5, I'd be out of here too. It's a great business, but the hours are K-I-L-L-E-R.....

Doesnt the negotiation of these cars stop early when the inventry is hard to get? Honestly, Toyota and Honda cars havent lost any of thier following. Doesnt make sense to me.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Kyflier

Thank you Champ, but the one BIG thing your missing about Toyota sales being down has nothing to do with the cars or dealers. Remember the Sunami? It wiped out total factories that supplied electronics for alot of those cars, check Honda sales as well, they are down too. Alot of it has to do with available inventory.

Inventory WAS a problem earlier this spring.

But Toyota the numbers I posted earlier in this thread were for the month of August. For example, Corolla sales were down 19% in August - and it appears that there is no shortage of Corolla's based on what's sitting on the lot (14 on the lot in Rochester, MN).

Small car sales are up nationwide by 2.1%. With gas prices being what they are, people are looking at the competition in this market segment and making the decision to buy at an increasing rate from last year. What they aren't doing is buying Corolla's like they used to.

The Honda Accord was down 18.1% in August sales. My local Honda dealer has 26 Accords in stock.

Maybe it's just out here in the cornfields that the supply issues aren't the problem???

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Doesnt the negotiation of these cars stop early when the inventry is hard to get? Honestly, Toyota and Honda cars havent lost any of thier following. Doesnt make sense to me.

Normally, a tight supply means pricing is firm. But as I've posted earlier - Toyota is trying to regain market share.

But as I posted above, supply isn't as big a problem as people think it is.

And the ADVERTISEDdiscounts on Toyota's are significant.

On Rochester Toyota's webpage:

2011 Toyota Corolla - MSRP - $20,410.00 - Web pricing - $18,399.00 (14 in stock)

2011 Toyota Camry - MSRP - $25,125.00 - Web pricing - $22,439.00 (4 in stock)

2011 Toyota Avalon - MSRP - $38,844.00 - Web pricing - $34,799.00 (8 in stock)

2012 Toyota Highlander - MSRP - $40,987.00 - Web pricing - $37,599.00 (12 in stock)