[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

More clarification of CCW:

Liberal fantasy: every CCW holder is a wannabe gunslinger who is itchin' for a shootout.

Real life: CCW is one part of an overall self-defense strategy. The primary approach is situational awareness and avoidance of dangerous situations and people. The gun is only a comforting backup plan if the law-abiding citizen is cornered and has no other choice.

I don't know all 245,000 CCW people in Ohio and I can't cite any statistical data, but none that I've met WANT a confrontation. All that I know prefer to have a gun but move about quietly in society without it being a center of attention.

Eric

Conservative fantasy : Any person who questions the efficacy of CCW must be some wild-eyed commie who hates guns and wants to sissyfy our nation by attacking one of its key Constitutional guarantees.

Real life: Knowing who does and doesn't have a gun gives ME a feeling of security, especially knowing some law-abiding, well-meaning dufus who may have never held or pointed a gun in his life took the required 4 hours of training needed to carry and now has a Glock under his jacket as he sits at a coffee shop, waiting to be attacked. This is one reason the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the heads of most large-city police forces, and other law-enforcement organizations frown on CCW -- not open-carry, but CCW, as nobody knows whose got the guns, including the good guys.

Personally, I'm not so certain I'd like more guns "moving about quietly in society." Sure we could get to the point where no one knows with a certainty whose packing, so they leave everyone alone. And sure, the law-abiding citizen may never need the one he/she carries. I think both of those goals could be achieved by LETTING potential aggressors KNOW whose packing, and achieved more effectively.

[PonchoV8]

There is truth in both statements. I've heard and seen examples from both.

The most dangerous example was the fat balding, pot-bellied middle aged geek loser with a smarmy smirk on his face, dressed all in black with a GLOCK T-shirt and black fanny-pack on his hip that I saw while I was working at Sears Tires Store. His license plate said GLOCKEM. The guy was obviously picked on his whole life and appeared to be looking for a reason to draw on someone--but was really looking for a way to push his way around like the bullies must've done to him before he got armed. That's the tacti-cool guy that screws things up for everybody.

I heard a female African-American radio co-host say that all men with guns eventually go crazy and start shooting up something or at people. She was probably talking about the above guys.

I would want to carry open or concealed, when I want. Each would have it's place. If I went to church, I would want to go concealed. Car shopping? Open. See? It's easy.

[Elarson]

Another interesting point about a CCW license. To get mine, I had to have a background check to prove that I did not have a past criminal record. I also had to submit to a written application, fingerprinting and a photograph at the sheriff's station. If I had future criminal intent, I would not identify myself to the system like this.

So.....my CCW license makes me a certified non-criminal.

If another person (who is a stranger to you) has no CCW permit, you don't know what they are.

Every police agency that I've had direct contact with are comfortable with CCW (specifically...Sugarcreek Township Ohio, Lebanon Ohio, Ohio State Patrol, Indiana State Patrol).

Eric

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Another interesting point about a CCW license. To get mine, I had to have a background check to prove that I did not have a past criminal record. I also had to submit to a written application, fingerprinting and a photograph at the sheriff's station. If I had future criminal intent, I would not identify myself to the system like this.

So.....my CCW license makes me a certified non-criminal.

If another person (who is a stranger to you) has no CCW permit, you don't know what they are.

Every police agency that I've had direct contact with are comfortable with CCW (specifically...Sugarcreek Township Ohio, Lebanon Ohio, Ohio State Patrol, Indiana State Patrol).

Eric

Well, it's plain you see the potential for the benefits of CCW, and I can respect that. I'm more concerned with the potential downside and abuse of CCW, legitimately ( I think) doubting it's benefits. Not dismissing, but doubting. I'll never carry concealed, and am not really interested in being in the vicinity of someone I don't know who is carry concealed. Of course, if come guy saves my life, that could all change. If a newbie plugs me in the head coming to the rescue, I'll be disappointed.

[moto-d]

Um, and that's "some" guy!!!!

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Well, it's plain you see the potential for the benefits of CCW, and I can respect that. I'm more concerned with the potential downside and abuse of CCW, legitimately ( I think) doubting it's benefits. Not dismissing, but doubting. I'll never carry concealed, and am not really interested in being in the vicinity of someone I don't know who is carry concealed. Of course, if come guy saves my life, that could all change. If a newbie plugs me in the head coming to the rescue, I'll be disappointed.

Bringing this whole thing back to the original topic....

The armed Kroger employee stopped the armed robber, which prevented the criminal from hurting anyone at the store. So....in this direct example....CCW succeeded.

This topic can be what-iffed and theorized to death.



Eric

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Bringing this whole thing back to the original topic....

The armed Kroger employee stopped the armed robber, which prevented the criminal from hurting anyone at the store. So....in this direct example....CCW succeeded.

This topic can be what-iffed and theorized to death.



Eric

Not to flog the horse one more time, but was the Kroger's manager carrying the gun on his person, or did he just have access to it?

[Elarson]

That data is not available to us. But....since Kroger was reported to prohibit employees from bringing guns onto company property....it could be safely assumed that the gun was concealed on the manager's person (in other words, unknown to other employees) vs. sitting on a shelf, etc.

Eric

[andrewb70]

Originally Posted by moto-d

....I'm more concerned with the potential downside and abuse of CCW, legitimately ( I think) doubting it's benefits.....

It is always good to be skeptical, but the downsides that you fear just haven't materialized in any state where CCW has been enacted. As it has been said, anyone that holds a CCW is by definition a non-felon. It is also fair to state that non-felons who may have intent to commit a felony would not bother going through the CCW licensing process, and thus again illustrating that anyone that has a CCW is very unlikely to commit a felony.

Fact: Bad things can happen to good and bad people alike.

Fact: Bad guys don't care about gun laws and will obtain a firearm if they so desire.

Fact: When bad things happen, the police can't be there immediately to help.

Fact: If you have a firearm you might live instead of die as a result of bad things happening to you.

The same can be said if a person had a baseball bat, knife, tire iron, screwdrive, or any other tool that can be used as a weapon. It is just that a firearm is a very specialized tool which is perfectly suited for the task of self-defense. Us being car guys can easily understand the analogy; vice grips can be used to tighten lug nuts, but wouldn't you rather use a proper ratchet and a torque wrench?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Not to flog the horse one more time, but was the Kroger's manager carrying the gun on his person, or did he just have access to it?

Any responsible CCW holder would prefer to have a firearm on his/her person. There are two reasons for this. First, it is much more readily available if needed. Second, it is much safer, because once a firearm is out of it's owners direct control that is when accidents tend to happen. So it is more responsible to body carry then say have a gun in the car, etc...

Andrew

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by andrewb70

Any responsible CCW holder would prefer to have a firearm on his/her person. There are two reasons for this. First, it is much more readily available if needed. Second, it is much safer, because once a firearm is out of it's owners direct control that is when accidents tend to happen. So it is more responsible to body carry then say have a gun in the car, etc...

Andrew

X2

Eric

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Conservative fantasy : Any person who questions the efficacy of CCW must be some wild-eyed commie who hates guns and wants to sissyfy our nation by attacking one of its key Constitutional guarantees.

This is "fantasy"?

May I suggest you read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott?

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

This is "fantasy"?

May I suggest you read "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott?

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/493636.html

Well, Brian, I question the efficacy of CCW, and I am not a wild-eyed commie who hates guns and wants to sissyfy our nation by attacking one of its key Constitutional guarantees. So there's at least one chink in your and John Lott's argument. Probably one or two more across the nation.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Well, Brian, I question the efficacy of CCW, and I am not a wild-eyed commie who hates guns and wants to sissyfy our nation by attacking one of its key Constitutional guarantees. So there's at least one chink in your and John Lott's argument. Probably one or two more across the nation.

I'll give you but one small example of the efficacy of CCW permits. In Florida, it changed how the state registers rental cars. How and why you ask? When Florida enacted a "shall issue" CCW law in 1987, criminal attacks on people using rental cars increased. You see, with Florida being a haven for tourists, criminals figured out that they would be less likely to encounter someone with a firearm who was in a rental car. Rental cars at that time were easily identified by the type of license plate they were issued. It wasn't long afterwards that the state figured out what was going on, so in an effort to protect their cash cow (tourism), they changed the license plates on the rental cars so that they would appear the same as a privately owned car by a resident.

There is no chink in Lott's argument when he compares crime rates from FBI statistics against states that have CCW laws enacted, and states that don't...this evidence is irrefutable, as is the argument that any criminal is less likely to commit a crime against a victim if they suspect the intended victim is armed with a firearm.

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

X2

Eric

Again, if you've been paying attention, I have advocated open carry, which IS on your person.

The contention is that a hidden weapon is somehow more effective than an open weapon. I've read lots of opinions here about why that is so -- most that simply don't pass the smell test -- and with the exception of exposed guns scaring people, not one makes a better case for CCW than open carry.

This Kroger case has been declared a victory for CCW on this thread! Why? The article doesn't mention where the gun was kept. So a lot of CCW advocates here have decided the manager had it in his pocket, because that assumption strengthens their arguments. Hell, then I could say he had it in his lunchbox with the same validity.

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I'll give you but one small example of the efficacy of CCW permits. In Florida, it changed how the state registers rental cars. How and why you ask? When Florida enacted a "shall issue" CCW law in 1987, criminal attacks on people using rental cars increased. You see, with Florida being a haven for tourists, criminals figured out that they would be less likely to encounter someone with a firearm who was in a rental car. Rental cars at that time were easily identified by the type of license plate they were issued. It wasn't long afterwards that the state figured out what was going on, so in an effort to protect their cash cow (tourism), they changed the license plates on the rental cars so that they would appear the same as a privately owned car by a resident.

And they needed CCW-permitting to change license plates on rental cars? You seem to mistake effect for cause.

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

There is no chink in Lott's argument when he compares crime rates from FBI statistics against states that have CCW laws enacted, and states that don't...this evidence is irrefutable, as is the argument that any criminal is less likely to commit a crime against a victim if they suspect the intended victim is armed with a firearm.

And what if they KNOW the the intended victim is armed, which has been my case?

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by andrewb70

It is always good to be skeptical, but the downsides that you fear just haven't materialized in any state where CCW has been enacted.
Andrew

Andrew, I provided a link with 216 cases where it HAS ...

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Andrew, I provided a link with 216 cases where it HAS ...

216 cases out of millions of CCW holders is such a small percentage that it actually supports the premise that CCW permitees are a responsible bunch.

No human endeavor has a 100% perfect record.

Eric

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by moto-d

And they needed CCW-permitting to change license plates on rental cars? You seem to mistake effect for cause.



And what if they KNOW the the intended victim is armed, which has been my case?

Perhaps you're not certain about the meaning of "efficacy", which is the capacity to produce an effect?

The CCW law in Florida produced two effects...lower crime AND a shift in crime (as evidenced by criminals targetting people in rental cars). One might say there were 3 effects produced, when the state changed the plates on rental cars.

Open carry or concealed carry, is really a moot point when one considers to obtain a license to do either in most states that allow it require said license holders to be law abiding with no criminal record and to pass proficiency tests, so I am not understanding your point. Is your point that the criminal is even less likely to commit the crime when they SEE the firearm? Again, I am missing the point, because whether the criminal sees it or not, the mere possibility of the target being armed causing the criminal to think twice has produced an effect.

[Nomadac]

Originally Posted by moto-d

Well, Brian, I question the efficacy of CCW, and I am not a wild-eyed commie who hates guns and wants to sissyfy our nation by attacking one of its key Constitutional guarantees. So there's at least one chink in your and John Lott's argument. Probably one or two more across the nation.

Andrew, I provided a link with 216 cases where it HAS ..

I'll never carry concealed, and am not really interested in being in the vicinity of someone I don't know who is carry concealed. Of course, if come guy saves my life, that could all change.

Read Debate: Concealed carry vs open carry gun laws
http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/in...carry_gun_laws

Concealed carry preserves element of surprise against threats.
Person carrying gun openly is first target during robbery.
Open carry is vulnerable to attacker trying to take weapon.
That some "can" open carry doesn't make it a good idea.
Bystanders often feel intimidated by openly carried guns.
Many open-carry merely to incite reactions.
Open carry provokes reactions and hassle.
Open carry causes discomfort and worsens anti-gun opinions.
Open carry risks fanatics pushing boundaries of appropriateness.
Concealed carry is better when more people are around.

The majority of real Gun Experts recommend CCW vs. Open Carry for many of the above reasons. You also fail to recognize that individuals unfamiliar with firearms have been bombarded with propaganda from the Anti-Gun crowd to fear firearms and anyone with firearms.

The link you provided also fails to consider the extremely small % of misuse to the overall benefits of success resulting from CCW that have prevented crimes or death by the criminals. This was also discussed previously when you raised this issue.

Those that choose to carry respect your choice to never carry. But don't disrespect those that do not share your opinion and paint us as reckless cowboys waiting for a chance draw our weapons. I have always believed in the Boy Scout motto of "Be Prepared" for any emergency.