[PonchoV8]

Unless something's changed here, a carry permit in TN is open or concealed. It's a Carry Permit.

Originally Posted by moto-d

I provided a link that provides case studies of cops who were murdered by legal CCW holders? Were they criminals until they shot the cop? Hope not ... they were issued CCW licenses.

They probably were, but probably not convicted. You can be a CONVICTED criminal and still get a CCW.
If a President rapes a woman and doesn't get charged or convicted of it, is he still a rapist? If a guy drives a car without a license is he still a car driver?

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by moto-d

1.) Well, we had two convictions for fraudulent voting in 2008, out of nearly 3 million votes cast, and they passed voter ID law, so I guess small numbers can represent "real problems.

2.) Let me ask you this: if it were reversed, and .0007% represented the number of people who died because they DIDN'T have access to CWW, would that be an acceptable number to you?

1.) But, the solution to the voting fraud problem wasn't to infringe upon voters rights by not allowing them to vote, which is what you are proposing by not allowing people to carry concealed legally.

2.) No, it wouldn't, and your reversal is non-sequitur because you are comparing people losing their life as a result of their 2nd Amendment rights being infringed to people losing their life due to criminal misuse of a lawfully manufactured and sold product.

[Elarson]

I caught myself in a mistake.......Texas does not permit open carry.

States that allow open carry w/o a permit and it is "generally accepted" (ref: "Travelers Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States", copyright Jan 2011):

Alaska
Arizona
Idaho
Kentucky
Louisana
Montana
New Hampshire
New Mexico
Vermont
Wyoming


FWIW:
Eric

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

1.) But, the solution to the voting fraud problem wasn't to infringe upon voters rights by not allowing them to vote, which is what you are proposing by not allowing people to carry concealed legally.

2.) No, it wouldn't, and your reversal is non-sequitur because you are comparing people losing their life as a result of their 2nd Amendment rights being infringed to people losing their life due to criminal misuse of a lawfully manufactured and sold product.

1.) Brian, your initial point was specifically that, if a problem is so statistically small as to be nearly non-existent, .0007% in the case of CCW, is it really a problem? The implication I guess is that, no, it is not. Well, I present a case in which 2 voting infractions out of 2.7 million voters creates a problem so pressing, so threatening, the Wisconsin legislature passed a law to "solve this problem." So it would seem statistically small numbers can indeed present problems large enough to address. Now apply to the CCW stats.

2.) No, I'm taking what you've made pretty clear is an unhappy, but statistically negligible number of deaths, and asking you if you'd find that statistic just as negligible if it was due to a lack of CCW laws. My guess is that you'd find these 216 "statistically negligible" deaths an outrage and a national tragedy. And yet it'd be the same 216 people. Just sayin'.

[PonchoV8]

I'm not kidding. This happened. Two young guys were in a pawn shop here when I walked in--they only seemed to speak in single syllable words. They were trying to buy a gun and reading each question out loud that was on the form.

One of the guy's reads this question aloud:

Are you an alien illegally in the United States?

He looked up at the clerk confused and said while he was pointing up, "You mean from out there?" HEEHEE-HAHAHA.
It turned out they were from Kentucky anyway.

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Moto-d: I respect your beliefs and I'm not here to try to change them. But I've read so much now that I'm puzzled. Can you clarify your position (and then hopefully we can be done)?

1) you favor open carry over CCW, correct?

2) you say that you like the idea of open carry but you dissed the states that were mentioned that are comfortable places for open carry. Your quote...."shoot-em-up states like Texas, Arizona and Alaska". That puzzles me. Explain?

3) you are not comfortable with the idea that a person would carry concealed with only 4 hours of training (you've mentioned 4 hours a few times). In fact, Ohio requires 12 hours of training and testing for CCW and zero hours for open carry. That puzzles me too...why you'd prefer open carry on somebody who has no verification of their knowledge of it's safe operation at all?

Eric

Eric--

1.) Yes, if people feel the need to carry for security and protection, I much prefer open carry

2.) I do not diss those states because they are open carry, I diss those states because of the prevailing attitudes in general -- a little too rootin'-tootin'-shootin' in general for me. That opinion is not based on their carry laws.

3.) In Wisconsin, it is 4 hours for a CCW license -- and they had to fight the "Constitutional Carry" crowd to get even that. And 4 hours to legally carry a concealed weapon is absurd. My son's hunter safety course when he was 12 was 6 hours.

As for open carry, as in Ohio, Wisconsin is also no license required, which I also think is absurd. I wish they WOULD require training to carry around in public altogether, and can only assume the legislature didn't want an NRA fight on their hands.

My personal preference for those who want to carry to open carry is because I like to know who has the guns and who doesn't when I'm sitting next to them at a restaurant or in a movie theater. I don't question their right to carry, I just like to know who has what.

I also tend to think that exposed weapons pack the same protection as a CCW gun, yet provide more of a deterrence. I'm no criminal mastermind, but I can tell you I wouldn't mess with a guy whose got a .357 on his hip. I assume most criminals -- at least the ones who aren't high on meth -- won't either. And if they are, I can't think of anything that'll deter 'em.

[Elarson]

OK, thanks for clarifying.

On a side note, my nephew (who is in the Air Force) is transferring to Alaska. He has been advised to carry all the time....not for criminals....but for roaming bears and other predators......apparently not uncommon. Never been there myself, but looking forward to visiting him sometime in the next 4 years.

Eric

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by PonchoV8

Unless something's changed here, a carry permit in TN is open or concealed. It's a Carry Permit.


They probably were, but probably not convicted. You can be a CONVICTED criminal and still get a CCW.
If a President rapes a woman and doesn't get charged or convicted of it, is he still a rapist? If a guy drives a car without a license is he still a car driver?

Evidently, some CCW holders did have previous convictions for domestic violence and a few other crimes, but many had no record at all, until they became murders. All were cleared to carry, which is a little frightening.

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Elarson

OK, thanks for clarifying.

On a side note, my nephew (who is in the Air Force) is transferring to Alaska. He has been advised to carry all the time....not for criminals....but for roaming bears and other predators......apparently not uncommon. Never been there myself, but looking forward to visiting him sometime in the next 4 years.

Eric

My father-in-law lived in Fairbanks for a few years back in the mid-1960s ... loved it. Good luck to your nephew.

[Nomadac]

Originally Posted by moto-d

My personal preference for those who want to carry to open carry is because I like to know who has the guns and who doesn't when I'm sitting next to them at a restaurant or in a movie theater. I don't question their right to carry, I just like to know who has what.

You appear to be worried about some sitting next to you in a restaurant, movie or other public place. Personally I am more worried about the drivers that talk on a cell phone or text, read a paper/map while driving, put makeup on or shave. The licensing for drivers is much more of a concern to me, judging from the drivers I see daily and pose a greater risk to injury or death to others.

IMO it is none of your business if I am carrying in public and do not believe in advertising to any potential threat to me, or anyone else.

And from your comment about gangs, it is apparent my point was clear over your head, as it did not pertain as to how they carry, which is concealed.

[moto-d]

Originally Posted by Nomadac

You appear to be worried about some sitting next to you in a restaurant, movie or other public place. Personally I am more worried about the drivers that talk on a cell phone or text, read a paper/map while driving, put makeup on or shave. The licensing for drivers is much more of a concern to me, judging from the drivers I see daily and pose a greater risk to injury or death to others.

IMO it is none of your business if I am carrying in public and do not believe in advertising to any potential threat to me, or anyone else.

And from your comment about gangs, it is apparent my point was clear over your head, as it did not pertain as to how they carry, which is concealed.

You might not think it's my business, but I like to know if some guy I've never met in my life has a gun next to me, like I like to know if the guy driving next to me is high on something. Call it caution.

As for the gang members, you asked if I know the number of people killed by gang members, then you asked if I thought they carried open. No I don't and no I don't. So what IS the point of these two questions?

[andrewb70]

Moto-D,

One thing that I wholeheartedly agree with you on is that no matter what evidence is presented here, no minds will be changed as a result of this debate...LOL

Carry on and be safe...no pun intended...or maybe it was...:-)

Andrew

[Nomadac]

Originally Posted by moto-d

As for the gang members, you asked if I know the number of people killed by gang members, then you asked if I thought they carried open. No I don't and no I don't. So what IS the point of these two questions?

You might not think it's my business, but I like to know if some guy I've never met in my life has a gun next to me

Let me explain this in simple terms. From my experience, frequent news reports, gang members kill many innocent citizens, that are caught in the cross fire or in the wrong place at the wrong time, when a gang member fire their weapons. This poses a serious threat to citizens, in many cases more then from a specific criminal act intended against the individuals(s).
If you were carrying open, and were not aware of your surroundings and gang members, you would likely be their first target, to eliminate their risk of being shot by you.
The primary reason for concealed carry is the element of surprise to defend yourself from a criminal. Open carry does not offer any surprise. Open carry puts a target on you by the criminal. Surprise(the fact that you are armed) is fundamental action in the tactics of defense.

You may like to know about someone with a CCW, but you have no legal right to this information. And the CCW holders have their right to privacy in this area. If you had been a customer in the Luby's massacre in Killeen, TX shooting I believe you would like some CCW holders in there at the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

Keep living in La La land and hope you don't befall the results of poor preparedness.

Like you posted you won't change the opinions of others that do not believe like you.

[400 4spd.]

http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...t|IndyStar.com


Reading between the lines of the Kroger statement, I think Kroger will wait several months until the public heat subsides. Then they will let the employee go, hoping it's "old news" and not news worthy.
So much for the (incorrect) initial statement about violating state and federal laws by being armed on company property.

[Region Warrior]

Good for the manager.

"1 in 10 CCW".
Without asking everyone here at work, know it's at least 3 in 10.
None have had to use it 6 yrs i've known them.
The owner fought against "the right to keep in your vehicle on employers property while at work".
He has gunafobia.
If he only knew...

[andrewb70]

Here is another data point for anyone that cares:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=14031

The study has a fascinating section that covers the history of conceal carry laws. Very interesting.

Andrew

[limejudge69]

You guys have to forgive Moto-d for his ignorance. He lives in WI, where the former gov, Jim Doyle and the corrupt Dem state house/senate, vetoed CCW many times. He lives in lily-white Appleton, not inner-city Milwaukee, and doesn't see crime daily. He is also a union member, and votes how the shop steward handout says to vote. The FACTS are these- less than 1% of all CCW permit holders commit crimes. Take your family up to Northridge Mall, Moto-d and see what kind of crap you see. Go to 76th and Brown Deer and see what's goin' on. I would rather see open carrying citizens than open carrying thugs. I lived and worked in Milwaukee, Washington, Dodge, Ozaukee, Sheboygan, and Outagamie Counties, for the record.

[hurryinhoosier62]

limejudge69,

I was thinking more like James Lovell Parkway north of the arena or maybe even North Milwaukee itself!!I'm a former Racine Co. resident. My wife's office was at corner of Michigan and Plankington in Milwaukee. One question: don't they close Northridge at around 7PM on the weekends??

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I caught myself in a mistake.......Texas does not permit open carry.

States that allow open carry w/o a permit and it is "generally accepted" (ref: "Travelers Guide to the Firearm Laws of the Fifty States", copyright Jan 2011):

Alaska
Arizona
Idaho
Kentucky
Louisana
Montana
New Hampshire
New Mexico
Vermont
Wyoming


FWIW:
Eric

Possibly Indiana too, with a license.

Hurry'n Hoosier, you know?

Yrs back it changed from CCP(concealed carry permit) to LTC(license to carry).
Asked my local cop bud's if it still meant concealed on person and/or in vehicle.
Or also open carry?

They all said bout same thing;

Dont know, its not stated one way or the other since it changed.
Call State Police, maybe they know LOL.

What would happen if i open carry?

Probly nothing. Scare some people.
But why would you advertize to the bad guys? Kinda dumb isnt it?

[Elarson]

Around here, unless you are wearing a uniform, open carry is probably going to scare somebody, they'll call the cops and then you have to contend with an inciting panic charge. Concealed is a far better idea for several reasons.

Eric