[Greg Reid]

I vote for Ron being welcome here. That's the great thing about the PY boards, as long as people behave with civility (outside the clubhouse) they are welcome.
I will say though Ron, you really didn't read the thread. Dr. Schiffer made it very clear within his first few posts that ALL of the cars/racers lost SOME races, including the Blackbird AND including the Silver Bullet.
I don't recall anyone here ever implying that the Blackbird never lost a race OR that the Silver Bullet never won a race.
The '67 GTX has always been my favorite with the '70 a very close second.
Speaking of the '67 GTX, there is one very near my home, factory GTX, also silver and with black interior.
It has been sitting in the front 'driveway' of a very small (I'd say two rooms) house in the country for the 18 years that I have known of it...and it was obviously sitting for some time before that... I have been tempted many times over the years to knock on the door to see what the deal was on it but the house just looks so UN-inviting. Also, there are about 30 Mopars sitting in the woods behind the house. That tells me that this guy don't sell cars.
Finally, just two weeks ago, I finally got my answer. He has placed a rope blocking the driveway across the back of the car, with a sign on the trunk... Two words are printed on the sign....KEEP OUT.

[rad400]

I know there were lies told about winning and loosing, just to want another guy form mopar or where ever ragging on Pontiacs we have enough of that from our own guys. I am also not saying Ron is lying about what he has heard, seen or read.

[LUST01]

Originally Posted by 383man

The Hemi was really born because Mopar wanted to win the 64 Nascar Daytona race and dominate in Nascar.

Another way of saying Chrysler was tired of losing to Pontiac in 61/62 then to the Ford Galaxie in 63 with the new fastback "SportsRoof" and 427 FE (Ford's answer to the 421 SD).

[LUST01]

The 63 anti-racing ban, along with the 10 hp per 1 pound rule, the 400 cid limit rule had a big affect on GM's products of the period. Yea there were cars like the COPO Camaros and Hurst Oldsmobiles but you are talking about a handful of cars. Most dealers had no idea how to order a COPO car or they just didn't want do. Thay would rather sale you a car of the lot. John DeLorean took a major risk just allowing the GTO to be built because it broke the 10 to 1 rule. GM allowed him to build 5000. Pontiac sold 30000+ plus. GM then changed the rules again. The new rule was midsize (and later pony cars) could have an engine no larger than 400 CID. DeLorean tryed to get 421 and later the 428 into his cars but GM would not allow it. It wasn't until the midsize and pony cars gained enough weight that GM lifted the rule. I sure the Chevy guys were doing the samething. Could you imange if Pontiac built a 428 cube ram air II motor or Chevy allowed the L88-427 to be a reqular production option in the Camaro. Those would have been some seriosly fast hardware. You may ask yourself, We did GM have all these bans in place? The answer is simple. GM had 50+ percent of the market share in the 60's and were facing anti-trust law suits. Their goal was to minimize "needless" or "bad" product recognition. While Chryler and Ford (esp with their Total Performance campain - Ford spent millions to win championships in every form of racing) went racing, GM wanted to look like church quire boys. GM got "officially" out of racing and tryed to limit bad or negative press. GM baned advertising that showed racing or displays of power. While Chrysler used the Hemi heavily in there print ads, GM never advertised any of the COPO cars or the L-88 Corvette. GM did not mind that these cars existed, they just didn't want the general population to know about them. You also have to remember that GM was also dealing with bad press from the safety problems with the Corvair. Ralph Nader was already starting his next witch hunt by stating the Big 3 were building cars that were to fast. This is another reason for GM advertising ban on power and racing.

[LUST01]

383man, I know you think Jimmy Addison is not getting a fair treatment on this thread but I want to point out to you one of the great things about this thread. One of the major contributors to this thread, Dr Eric Schiffer, was part of the orignal "High End Club" that existed in Detroit during the muscle car era. He is telling us first hand what it was like on the streets of Detroit back in the day. Not some story that has been filtered down. He even sets the story straight on some of the bull**** Jim Wagners spread around. Jim's GTX was one of the feared cars on the streets of Detroit during this time. All Eric did was point out that Jimmy, like all of the other Detroit street racers of the era, tryed to BS or manipulate the sitution to his advantage. This wasn't NRHA drag racing, It was street racing at it's finest with all the back door factory support and driver bravado. It was an era that will never happen again. I just wish I was there, even just as a spectator.

[rad400]

X2 Matt

[383man]

Originally Posted by LUST01

Another way of saying Chrysler was tired of losing to Pontiac in 61/62 then to the Ford Galaxie in 63 with the new fastback "SportsRoof" and 427 FE (Ford's answer to the 421 SD).

I agree that is 100% true. Mopar didnt even really have anything competitive in NHRA until the 62 Max Wedge 413.

I do apoligize if I ruffled to many feathers as I did not intend for that. And this has gone on for many years and will for years to come. I guess its called bench racing and I know in the winter months it really gets heavy. But that is what its all about. We need many different brands as most get no pride in beating up on the same brand of car. I do love this hobby and enjoy talking about Pontiacs when I can as I do any muscle car. Thanks , Ron

[Dr HEMI]

I see the Blackbird is represented in this poster available from the Harold Sullivan site.

http://www.silverbulletgtx.com/store/merch.html

[ANDYA]

Originally Posted by Dr HEMI

I see the Blackbird is represented in this poster available from the Harold Sullivan site.

http://www.silverbulletgtx.com/store/merch.html

It's funny how of all the cars that the Silver Bullet raced against it's shown right next to the Blackbird (without the gold stripe) in the poster. BTW it is a very nice painting, I might just order one!

[Dr HEMI]

I can't believe nobody's talked Lane Automotive into building
a 1/18 of that 'Bird......They have the mold.

[Greg Reid]

That WOULD make a nice model...

[Wareagle]

Here's a little 400 doing us Pontiac fans proud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1wgyVlWyOg

[Wareagle]

Eric one of the coolest stories I read was in a copy of CARS Magazine when they took a 69 RAM AIR IV Firebird Street racing and shocked the Street Rats - Hemi's etc. .

[indymanjoe]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Indyman,
Who are you refering to as the original builders? Brian Ballish and John Politzer? or The late Kneiper brothers?
Eric

I forgot about this thread,i'll ask him tomorrow at work.I dont know his wife's maiden name but i do think her dad was the original owner/driver.

[rohrt]

All I can say is WOW! what a thread how the heck have I missed this over the years. It has taken me three days to read through this. Some parts I skimmed and others I read in depth. It has been an education for sure. I think I'm going to go back and read it all over again.

I had no idea that Jim Wagner played such a crucial row in the street racing and his ties to Royal. Its been fun reading up on Royal and what they did to the cars.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Double WOW. I have not been to this site in a while. Glad you guys are learning to play nice! LOL

I guess I should answer a few questions that came up. One is that Harold Sullivan and I know each other and live near on and other. Harold had my wife and I over to his new home for a garage party before he relased the poster. The poster is a copy of approximately 65' mural on the back wall of one of his two garages at his home. Or should I saw Mansion!!!!
Harold's god son and my son where room mates at Michigan State..oh wow that was 12 years ago!

Harold kid's me about runing the two cars. Problem is I rebuilt the "Black Bird" simular to the 1971 artilce..ie full interior, heater, wipers etc... It will run low 11's high 10's. S I can drive it on the street. But we are not even close to being legal for any track.

Harold on the other hand built approx. 472 cid car that will run more like Addison did with he had a tunnel ram and 480 plus cubes in 1973. Harod also likes to build the GTX up and promote it.

By 1973 both cars had seen there best days. Addison was going to put his engine into a Plymouth Duster and build it as the new Silver Bullet. I and a lot of other people saw the Duster though the garage door window at the Sunoco Station when it came back from being acid dipped. The car was too weak structurally and Addison did not have the kind of money to do another car. That was pretty much the end of Addison's street racing days.

Now the reason for the smaller car was simple. Every one was putting V8's in Vega's, Pintos and Mustang II's It did not take as much HP to run with the big dogs.

By 1974 Pro-Stock was running high 8's. Some Ford guys by the name of Wayne Gapp, and another never heard of again guy from Livionia, Jack Roush built a Mustang II with a 351 that went high 8's and the Nationals. Loosing to cross town rival Wally Booth in and AMC Hornet. There was even a 9.154 all Pontiac Astre. Not to exclude our Mopar friends who have joined us but there was Melvin Yow's in Bill Stepps' '73 Hemi Duster 9.068 and Reid Whisnant in a Duster quailfing at 9.076.
Event winner was Wally Booth in the AMC and Jack Roush in the Mustang II.

At the same time Gapp and Roush built a silver 460 CID, bored out to 505, Mustang II for the street for a customer. He is also one of the long time "High End" club member, Joe Ruggirello. I posted the story of the Aug/Sept article on the "High End Club" by Brock Yates. It show Joe and his Mustang at the Nugget restaurant.

Joe ran this Mustang II, with against Jim Wanger's "new" car in 1974-75. Jim's car was a 1975 Monza 350 plus CID with NOS. Fred Forman drove this car for Jim with Duncan Michael and his brother building the engine. Both cars where high 8 second cars. The only thing that Joe wanted to know at the end of the race was, "What is it going to take to beat you Wangers?". Joe went onto to have Roush put twin turbo's on the car. The two cars never lined up again.
Joe's Mustang II is currently being restored by a gentileman in Florida in hopes to bringing it up Detroit for the Dream Cruise. He found the car on E-bay with it's drive train still intact but the car was now white with blue stripes.

I found another picture from 1968 of Tony Knieper at the Winter Nationals at LA County Fairgrounds. After trailing all the way from Detroit to Califorina he lost in the class final Mike Landy's Mopar. John "the Cheater" Politzer flew out there to crew for Tony.

As you recall Tony's brother Mike was the original owner of the Black Bird. Both had been killed in a trailering accident from Indy.

Included the 1968 Nationals and Winter Nationals so you can see what the cars in this time period where running. Even though most of the Woodward racers, would never pass tech you get a better idea what the street guys would be running. Look at the Modified classes for a better idea of the hot cars around town. Then cut a few tenths from that because once again non would pass a safety inspection either.

[Dr HEMI]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Harold had my wife and I over to his new home for a garage party before he released
the poster. The poster is a copy of approximately 65' mural on the back wall of one of
his two garages at his home.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

It think I read it was mentioned that neither the '67 GTX, "Silver Bullet", or the '68 Firebird "Black Bird" couldn't have gone into the low 10's because Super Stock and Pro- Stock weren't even that fast.

Remember these "fast" Detroit cars where never meant for "legal" track classes. So they had no weight restrictions. Addison had fiberglass, Steve Mair, the late GM VP's son, had a Chevrolet engineering Can Am aluminum engine in his light weight '70 Chevelle. Cars out of Booth and Arron's ran the rules of the street. "There are no rules".LOL

As I said before John "Cheater" Polizter would drive not only Jim Wangers' and Royal's cars but also Wally Booth's or even Tony Knieper's race cars on the street for match races. It was a wonderful time.

Let me now give you what the Pro-Stock class of 1974 ran. This caused most of the prior year Chevy Camaro's, Ford Mustangs, and Mopars to slide downward to Super Stock due to the new weight breaks. The smaller lighter cars really took off in performance.

At the 1974 Gatornationals you will even find a Pontiac Astre in the top 15 Pro-stock ranks.
It is pictured in the middle of the page. Looks like a Vega but it's a Pontiac!

Theses times showed NHRA that they needed to slow these cars up. Of course between the oil embargo and Chrysler now showing signs of money problems things greatly changed. On the track and on the streets.

It was unfortunate that only Pontiac was into street proformance. But it took several PMD enigineers and the PMD foundry mgr who were racers to get last muscle engine built. With the 455SD introduced in 1973. The engine that almost never was installed in ANY car. People quite over this one. This is a story for another time.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

More from The '74 Super Stock Magazine S/S cars and times.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Dr HEMI

Great shot of Harold's Mopar side of the house...I'm sure you have some photos of his above the garage "Man Cave" to share. I love the Penta Star ski light.
Ya, the rest of the house isn't too shabby either. Like his lower level with all of the Tv's and wood carvings.

Oh by the way. Note that the Black Bird is the only car without a license plate on it. I have no idea why. If you look closely the 'Bird also has a hood tach, which it never did too. But shhhdon't tell anyone. There is nothing not to like about the poster!

It is a GREAT POSTER. You need to go to Harold's site and get it..REALLY! Get it matted in a dark blue and inner silver trim and silver frame. It makes eveything "POP".

As for the questions about the car with and without the stripe. When Jim Wangers first got the car it was all black for the first few years while John Politzer did the driving. It was not until Frankie Urbrick took over the driving that he had the "Peach Pearl" paint added to the car's hood and rear spoiler and panel.

When I got the car it was all Black again.Jim Wangers requested I when I repaint the car to put the "Peach Pearl" on it again. I honored Jim's request and did the striping.