[deadbug]

I have a '65 GP, that after a brake job is street ready. I wanna make some restorative improvements but need some opinions...

I have no plans of making it a perfect restoration, but I want to keep it as much original as practical, and very pretty.

The original paint has held up well and I intend to get it repainted. In the mean time is it worth a good buffing to shine it up or just wait for the paint job? I've been underneath it, and there is considerable rust where the body is attached to the frame?

Can I get by without a body off frame restoration, or is a waste of cash to make it pretty and live with the rust where the body meets the frame?

It has a dealer installed A/C, does this make it more rare, or is it of no consequence?
And how is it recharged?

Morokide front seats need redone. Should I stick with the original green or go with whatever I choose (bicolor) leaving it still morokide?

I am one hubcap short of the originals. But what about chrome wheels and white letter tires?

I'd like to put headers on it, but it is loud enough as it is. Can I put headers on without making it sound "souped up"?

The engine has approximately 108K, the trans has been rebuilt but leaks, probably at the front seal. When I pull the engine to fix the tranny leak, should I go with an engine rebuild? I need the valves redone for unleaded fuel anyway.

Good or Bad, thanks for your opinions....

deadbug

My end goal is a shiny, sharp, old Pontiac that I can reliably drive once or twice a week during the warm months, and take to a local show now and then. I'm not after any trophies, but I don't wanna make mods that diminish the car.

[63 Pontiac]

You might be surprised what a decent buffing would do for a paint job. But before spending big bucks you should assess the structural condition of the frame and body mounts since you've already identified a potential problem. If you have serious problems there it doesn't make sense to spend money on the appearance first.

[goatless]

How rusty where the body meets the frame? You don't want to drive around in something unsound. That being said there is nothing wrong with having a decent driver- that is, a car that isn't perfect but looks pretty damn good to most people. Most of my cars are that way. Shiny on top, but a little grungy on the bottom. It makes them a lot easier to enjoy when you don't have to worry about getting dirt on the bottom of your car!

Dealer A/C- if it works and you use it, I'd keep it. If it doesn't work or you have no need for it, I'd pull it off just so it's not in the way whenever you need to work on the car and a little neater appearance.

Interior- do whatever makes you happy. If you keep it stock, then you only need to redo the parts that need it.

Why do you want to add headers? Headers on a street car can have a lot of drawbacks. I'd stay with manifolds if it was me. If you really feel the need to do something then go with the long branch manifolds. I don't think you'll see any real gain on a stock motor though.

If the motor runs well, with good compression and doesn't smoke I'd leave it alone. No urgent need to do hardened valve seats on a Pontiac. The heads were made of good iron and hold up pretty well.

[Deadhead]

What he said. Check the frame. Boxed GP frames get rusted through in places. Make sure it is solid. If not, focus on interior restoration, which I would do original if it was me, and keeping body solid. If rot, begin looking for a frame replacement. Then you can do your frame-off later if it needs that.

Forget headers. The only option there is long branch factor manifolds.

Going with a 15" wheel would be a good choice. You can buy a replacement hubcap for $10 though.

I prefer A/C cars myself. You can convert to more modern gas and recharge after replacing seals, drier etc.

Rebuild engine and tranny. Well worth it.

The real $ comes in when you have to paint it.

[66bonne]

Deadbug: Listen carefully to the advice that the above 3 posters offer. They make sage suggestions that I can only echo.
I may have a GP wheel cover for you. Post a Pix of what you have and I'll see if I have the match. If so, I'll send you a couple of extras as well. No charge, Darksiders help each other out.

Jim

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 66bonne

No charge, Darksiders help each other out.

Love it.

The only sage advice I can offer is: "they're only original once".

If that paint can be salvaged that's the way I'd go. It'll save you a lot of bucks and a lot of aggravation.

K

[Ragtop Man]

2X on Keith's advice.

Skip the headers, chrome wheels and white letter tires -- the GP is a cool luxury car, not a hot rod.

If the seats are otherwise salvagable, I'd call SMS for the materials which they will have in stock, and get a good trim shop to stitch them up, then concentrate on sprucing up the detail items. You'd be surprised what some elbow grease and repro parts can do for an interior.

As for the paint, a thorough (but gentle) light high grit wet sand followed by a multi step buff will give you 85% of new paint for 10% of the cost. Just be super careful over the ridges and creases. There are several good tutorials on line.

The issue with darksider cars is that outside of the circle of big car fans, there just isn't much demand in the collector community unless they are highly optioned and painted in an original "it" color like a Barrier Blue '66, for example.

IMO, the true value in our cars is to drive them and enjoy them. They literally stop traffic, they are great on the road and I can tell you with 100% certainty, there will never be any more built like them as long as we or our children live.

[AROWHED]

"...the GP is a cool luxury car, not a hot rod."

I disagree. The GP can easily be both. A stock 65 GP is around 600 lbs heavier than a 65 GTO, but it's also a better looking car overall, roomier, handles well, has larger brakes, and when it comes down it any car can be built to be fast. It was Pontiac's top model...not just a LeMans option. Grand Prix's were Pontiac's answer to the high-selling Impala. The lack of large collector demand only reinforces the individuality of owning a GP. I've never seen another 65 GP at a car show that wasn't a Pontiac-only event. I get people asking me about mine all the time...at the gas pump, grocery store parking lot, even at a red light. Yes I put crazy wheels and huge tires on mine, but so do Goat owners.

Your end goal for the car really determines this, but if street performance is something you desire, your primary focus should be in the direction of increasing low and midrange torque, not necessarily high rpm power...it takes a lot to get 4400 lbs off the line and moving. Once they are actually needed to further enhance engine performance, headers for first gen Firebirds will usually fit, as both cars are rear steer.
Fabcraft is now making 3.55 rear gears, and Engineered Performance can convert your stock open differential into a posi. Upgrades to the trans as increasing power levels demand.

[Ragtop Man]

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Never doubted GP performance for a minute, but adding aftermarket to the exterior takes away from the clean long lines and the great sculpturing. Like wearing tennis shoes with a tux, at least to me.

Darksiders never fail to draw attention, wherever they go, my advice about values was directed to contemplating a body-off resto of a rusty car for an average guy, the money will never come back. Its a worthy car, for sure, just watch your money because they eat it FAST.

But then again, if that was the issue, you'd get a '69 GTO instead, any time that the resto shows do one, it drives a super high price.

[63gpman]

I am with most people here, but am ok with a little mod here and there. I had the ability to drive my 65 Cat prior to tear down for a year to figure out what I wanted to do with it before I started to tear it appart to build it back up (going slow by the way)

It is your car, do what you want with it, enjoy owning it, but more so make sure you drive it as much as you can. My plans include long branch exhaust, big sway bars front and rear, rally II wheels and that is about it other than rebuilding what I have. I may put in an HEI, 10si alt, relays on the headlights for some added reliability and safty. I was going to add a GTO scoop to the hood, but have backed away from that idea.

The more I read, learn and see other cars, i am moving more to keeping them the way they came from the factory but am ok with driveability upgrades such as disc brakes, adjusted ride height/suspension upgrades, wheels and things that are easy to put back the way they were if the next owner feels that need.

As far as paint, if there are no signs of any real rust, take it to a body shop and see if you can get them to wet sand and buff it out for around $400 or less (would think 6-8 hrs at your local rate should more than do). Some of the greatest cars I have seen have crazing in the paint and some primer/sun damage showing, but are all original and very cool to see that way.

Just my input..

[mviker]

My 2 cents for what it's worth...

The first thing to do is assess the condition. Sounds like you've identified most of the trouble areas. The second thing is to really sit down and think about what the car means to you and your expectations/abilities.

It sounds like you've got a handful there. Frame and rust will be an issue down the road if not now. How long are you hoping to keep the car? Is this a love at first sight car or do you think someday you may move on? If it's love, then you may consider getting the worst done first and attack the rust issues. That can be a time consuming thing, but you can probably hit them one at a time and whittle them down as money/time permits.
I'd be kind of averse to putting a lot into the mechanicals only to have the car rot apart around it all and end up dead with a nice drivetrain. This ain't a cheap hobby, but if you plan things out and have a real end goal in sight, then your car can be a long term project that you can drive and enjoy as you go. There are lots of great guys here. You'd be surprised at how helpful they can be at times.

From what you've said, it sounds to me like those rust issues should get your first attentuion. Maybe not all of them, but if mounts are rotted, then they ARE going to give you trouble. Fix the most egregious rust if you can, then once you've got it fairly solid, start thinking about the mechanical stuff. Heck, you can alwasy stockpile all the fun stuff while the rust is getting fixed. That'll make it a heck of a lot easier and funner when you dig into that part.

Got pics? I can't be the only one waiting to see what you're working with. There may be some great advice waiting for you too on how to deal with it. regardless...Everyone here wants you to be successful getting your car back on the road. Pics would give us all something fun to look at and maybe ideas on where to start!

You've come to the right place!

Kevin

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by 63 Pontiac

You might be surprised what a decent buffing would do for a paint job. But before spending big bucks you should assess the structural condition of the frame and body mounts since you've already identified a potential problem. If you have serious problems there it doesn't make sense to spend money on the appearance first.

Thanks for the input, I am pretty sure I am not qualified to determine how serious body to frame rusting is.

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by goatless

How rusty where the body meets the frame? You don't want to drive around in something unsound. That being said there is nothing wrong with having a decent driver- that is, a car that isn't perfect but looks pretty damn good to most people. Most of my cars are that way. Shiny on top, but a little grungy on the bottom. It makes them a lot easier to enjoy when you don't have to worry about getting dirt on the bottom of your car!

Dealer A/C- if it works and you use it, I'd keep it. If it doesn't work or you have no need for it, I'd pull it off just so it's not in the way whenever you need to work on the car and a little neater appearance.

Interior- do whatever makes you happy. If you keep it stock, then you only need to redo the parts that need it.

Why do you want to add headers? Headers on a street car can have a lot of drawbacks. I'd stay with manifolds if it was me. If you really feel the need to do something then go with the long branch manifolds. I don't think you'll see any real gain on a stock motor though.

If the motor runs well, with good compression and doesn't smoke I'd leave it alone. No urgent need to do hardened valve seats on a Pontiac. The heads were made of good iron and hold up pretty well.

I don't mind if it's a little grungy underneath, just not sure between a little grungy, and a waste of money making it a nice looking ride and one big pot hole separates body from frame.

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by Ragtop Man

2X on Keith's advice.

Skip the headers, chrome wheels and white letter tires -- the GP is a cool luxury car, not a hot rod.

If the seats are otherwise salvagable, I'd call SMS for the materials which they will have in stock, and get a good trim shop to stitch them up, then concentrate on sprucing up the detail items. You'd be surprised what some elbow grease and repro parts can do for an interior.

As for the paint, a thorough (but gentle) light high grit wet sand followed by a multi step buff will give you 85% of new paint for 10% of the cost. Just be super careful over the ridges and creases. There are several good tutorials on line.

The issue with darksider cars is that outside of the circle of big car fans, there just isn't much demand in the collector community unless they are highly optioned and painted in an original "it" color like a Barrier Blue '66, for example.

IMO, the true value in our cars is to drive them and enjoy them. They literally stop traffic, they are great on the road and I can tell you with 100% certainty, there will never be any more built like them as long as we or our children live.

.
I share the same opinion about this vehicle. I am not out to impress anyone. I prefer the car be as original as possible, but am asking you darksiders your opinions before I make any further investments. I love this car and don't really care what anyone else thinks, but I DO wanna drive it out on the open highway, or back country roads.

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by AROWHED

"...the GP is a cool luxury car, not a hot rod."

I disagree. The GP can easily be both. A stock 65 GP is around 600 lbs heavier than a 65 GTO, but it's also a better looking car overall, roomier, handles well, has larger brakes, and when it comes down it any car can be built to be fast. It was Pontiac's top model...not just a LeMans option. Grand Prix's were Pontiac's answer to the high-selling Impala. The lack of large collector demand only reinforces the individuality of owning a GP. I've never seen another 65 GP at a car show that wasn't a Pontiac-only event. I get people asking me about mine all the time...at the gas pump, grocery store parking lot, even at a red light. Yes I put crazy wheels and huge tires on mine, but so do Goat owners.

Your end goal for the car really determines this, but if street performance is something you desire, your primary focus should be in the direction of increasing low and midrange torque, not necessarily high rpm power...it takes a lot to get 4400 lbs off the line and moving. Once they are actually needed to further enhance engine performance, headers for first gen Firebirds will usually fit, as both cars are rear steer.
Fabcraft is now making 3.55 rear gears, and Engineered Performance can convert your stock open differential into a posi. Upgrades to the trans as increasing power levels demand.

Thanks for the input, I am not really interested in high performance via headers, unless I can use headers as a performance improvement without making it sound like I was going for street performance. It I can do it quietly, I want the improvement, but if it makes people turn there heads, I am not interested. I'd prefer they turn their head based upon looks not sound.

thanks again.

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by 63gpman

I am with most people here, but am ok with a little mod here and there. I had the ability to drive my 65 Cat prior to tear down for a year to figure out what I wanted to do with it before I started to tear it appart to build it back up (going slow by the way)

It is your car, do what you want with it, enjoy owning it, but more so make sure you drive it as much as you can. My plans include long branch exhaust, big sway bars front and rear, rally II wheels and that is about it other than rebuilding what I have. I may put in an HEI, 10si alt, relays on the headlights for some added reliability and safty. I was going to add a GTO scoop to the hood, but have backed away from that idea.

The more I read, learn and see other cars, i am moving more to keeping them the way they came from the factory but am ok with driveability upgrades such as disc brakes, adjusted ride height/suspension upgrades, wheels and things that are easy to put back the way they were if the next owner feels that need.

As far as paint, if there are no signs of any real rust, take it to a body shop and see if you can get them to wet sand and buff it out for around $400 or less (would think 6-8 hrs at your local rate should more than do). Some of the greatest cars I have seen have crazing in the paint and some primer/sun damage showing, but are all original and very cool to see that way.

Just my input..

I have given a lot of thought to adding HEI distributor, but as long as it starts so easy, I am not sure it's worth it. At least til problems show up.

[Hitman]

Check out youtube for autogeek. He has some good tips for buffing old paint. I love the 65 fullsize cars. They look good with subtle touchs but with all the ones I had I always left them sort of stock with safety/driveablity upgrades. The cars looks so good and have enough personality they dont needs to be dressed up with a lot of chrome and flashy wheels and such. The factory took care of that. With that said, make it what you want. It is your car and you have to live with it. Upgrade the ignition, get a good exhaust that lets the car breathe and give it a good tune up. If you are like me you'll be to busy driving it to worry about a bunch of expensive dress up parts.

[jdh421]

Electronic ignition is a great addition to any car. HEI, Pertronix, or a slew of others can make the car alot more reliable. 15 inch radials (easy to find) and a rebuilt suspension make the car more roadworthy. a Disc Brake upgrade would not hurt either. I have a few Darksiders around and will vouch for the attention they draw. You see firebirds, lemans, and GTOs at every carshow, but if you roll into a parking lot, swap meet, or car show. every one comes and tell you about the big Pontiac they had or their family had when they were younger. Just make the car safe and reliable and drive it. That is where the value is for these cars.

[deadbug]

Originally Posted by mviker

My 2 cents for what it's worth...

The first thing to do is assess the condition. Sounds like you've identified most of the trouble areas. The second thing is to really sit down and think about what the car means to you and your expectations/abilities.

It sounds like you've got a handful there. Frame and rust will be an issue down the road if not now. How long are you hoping to keep the car? Is this a love at first sight car or do you think someday you may move on? If it's love, then you may consider getting the worst done first and attack the rust issues. That can be a time consuming thing, but you can probably hit them one at a time and whittle them down as money/time permits.
I'd be kind of averse to putting a lot into the mechanicals only to have the car rot apart around it all and end up dead with a nice drivetrain. This ain't a cheap hobby, but if you plan things out and have a real end goal in sight, then your car can be a long term project that you can drive and enjoy as you go. There are lots of great guys here. You'd be surprised at how helpful they can be at times.

From what you've said, it sounds to me like those rust issues should get your first attentuion. Maybe not all of them, but if mounts are rotted, then they ARE going to give you trouble. Fix the most egregious rust if you can, then once you've got it fairly solid, start thinking about the mechanical stuff. Heck, you can alwasy stockpile all the fun stuff while the rust is getting fixed. That'll make it a heck of a lot easier and funner when you dig into that part.

Got pics? I can't be the only one waiting to see what you're working with. There may be some great advice waiting for you too on how to deal with it. regardless...Everyone here wants you to be successful getting your car back on the road. Pics would give us all something fun to look at and maybe ideas on where to start!

You've come to the right place!

Kevin

You've all been very helpful. I shall try to post some pics of the rust that troubles me and seek your input. I appreciate everyone's help, because I am not qualified to say whether this rust is a high priority or just something to deal with as I go. The car is not something I'm going to leave behind for the next project. It is my baby.

[Deadhead]

There is nothing cooler than hearing a '60s Pontiac V8 with an 068 or 744 cam through dual super turbos. I have a number of configurations like this, and every one of them will bring a huge smile to your face even when it is just sitting still rumbling. That would be my highest recommendation. It ain't loud, but you know damn well there is something cooking when it swings into the lot.

You can overlook a lotta rust when confronted with that torquey sound.