[FrankieT/A]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

If you can't get the carb correct then you need to have someone that knows carburetors fix it properly. Set up correctly a carb will do everything a fuel injected car will, whatever the ambient temperature is.

This requires making all the adjustments with angle gauges, pin gauges, a vacuum pump is also required. Setting fast idle on the correct step of the cam, bending linkages to get the correct specs and it will run as well as fuel injection will. That being said very few people bother to, or know how to, or have the correct tools to set all these things, and as a result their carbed cars run poorly. Turning the choke thermostat one way or the other is not going to get a cold blooded car to run properly.

With all the carb parameters set properly it's amazing how well a carburetor will run cold as well as warm. This is not a valid reason to remove a Stratostreak engine and substitute it with an LS engine, it's an excuse.

That's not entirely true, cause if you drive car in areas like Calf. Where you could be at sea level in the morning, you could be at 3000 ft. In the evening.

[Sirrotica]

I've driven carbed cars over the Rockie mountains and back down and didn't have any problems starting them when properly set up. Your nit picking, there are not separate carb choke specs for high elevation so the manufacturers never thought that the specs given wouldn't work in either application.

BTW, the C3 carbs (1981-1986 for the most part) will compensate for elevation as the fuel mixture is adjusted 10 times a second. The system has a map and baro sensor on it, as well as a O2 sensor and is ECM controlled.....................

If your talking about fuel injection to be a deal breaker it's more cost efficient to retrofit a aftermarket system to a Stratosteak engine than do an engine swap.

I'm standing by what I said, IT'S AN EXCUSE NOT A REASON.

[FrankieT/A]

I knew you were gonna come back with something, Brad. I really wasn't talking about the choke per se. You have to admit with carb you don't get ideal mixture at differing altitudes. I really didn't have the choke in mind. And since most of our cars don't have electronic carbs anyway, that point is really moot. I would sooner adapt fuel injection before an electronic carb. I don't really care (to a point)how a car run in first few minutes anyway, it's just temporary. I live at sea level and I have to drive 600 miles before I see altitude. Unlike Ohio. And I do agree you with in that adapting fuel in injection to a Strato Streak would be way better than an engine swap.

[Sirrotica]

All 81 Pontiacs did have electronic fuel and spark management systems including the 81 301 Turbo. Nothing bigger than 301 ever had the C3 system though. The reason I am familiar with these systems is because in 1982 I worked at Buick dealership and I was sent to school for this system and am very familiar with it.

I feel the same way and would never go to all the trouble of adapting a C3 system as you would have to have a custom prom burned to adapt it to larger engines and any other performance upgrades. Just keeping the record straight that there is a system that will allow a carb to be compensated to altitude differences. Agree aftermarket fuel injection would be the easiest choice.

[kainedogg]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I've driven carbed cars over the Rockie mountains and back down and didn't have any problems starting them when properly set up. Your nit picking, there are not separate carb choke specs for high elevation so the manufacturers never thought that the specs given wouldn't work in either application.

BTW, the C3 carbs (1981-1986 for the most part) will compensate for elevation as the fuel mixture is adjusted 10 times a second. The system has a map and baro sensor on it, as well as a O2 sensor and is ECM controlled.....................

If your talking about fuel injection to be a deal breaker it's more cost efficient to retrofit a aftermarket system to a Stratosteak engine than do an engine swap.

I'm standing by what I said, IT'S AN EXCUSE NOT A REASON.

How does one calculate cost efficiency? Is it based on just sticking with what you have, and dealing with the compromises of archaic technology, or having to fiind someone who knows how to tune your carb, because you lack the skill and desire to learn it? Is it sticking with the familiar and not wanting to change with the times?
I agree that the swap is costly to do initially (it's a hobby, so a money pit, not an investment therein) but the gains are excellent and the potential is greater than any old poncho...if you want drivability and excessive performance. (Not quite possible to have both with a carb...said not quite)
I like the idea of setting and forgetting, not twiddling and hum-hawing whether it's too cold or hot...and this is on a stack car, not some, heavy cammed, flat tappet beast belching out ungodly amounts of torque while rendering 8mpg while cruising.
I think it's an excuse to not do it (swap), under the guise that it's too unfamiliar, too new and just plain wrong...lol.
Seriously though, I have always considered a carb, a controlled fuel leak and see no reason to not embrace the vast improvements an ls motor provides, ie. superior fuel economy, heads that flow for days in stock form (God helps us when they are ported) a car that you can plug up and it can tell you what ails it, with a plug-in and a few clicks.
Carbs be damned, fight what you fear, learn what's new...and who knows, you may actually like stepping out of th cave to embrace the electron and silicon age

Not trying to sway anyone just dolling out my like everyone else.
Pulled out the original '68 350 in my Lemans and gave it to the junkyard for a nice little 5.3/4l60e conversion. Wit my C10 yanked out the sbc and tossed in a 6.0 but stuck with the TH350 until I get the funds to buy a 4l80e.

[77HANDMEDOWN]

Ls engines are the cats pajamas and I will not say they are not. As far as mods go though Just because an individual has an ls or fuel injection does not mean it automatically runs correct, gets good mpg or has excellent driveability. Truth is wether you choose a carb or efi there are tons of parts swappers out there that have no clue how to tune any kind of fuel system. In 40 years when there are a bunch of swapped ls with mix match parts and unknown maintenance by inexperienced mechanics then they too will run like crap.

Ithink on a heavly modded car there is more not less stuff to tinker and fart with running efi. I want an efi coil on plug Poncho motor with an elec controlled trans. That is a lot of stuff to tinker with. To say that with efi you do not need to tinker or make adjustments is not completely accurate. It depends on what your set up is. On a stocker not much needs attention but what is the fun in that. Big cam cars can have problems with mass air signal since the air kinda pulses across the sensor instead of just a nice clean flow. Tunes with really aggressive timing maps are way more finicky about knock when intake temps are hot. My personal dd HATES changes in baro pressure and humidity in closed loop. I have a hot summer map that is much less aggressive than my milder months maps.

If we were talking small displacement small block Chevys you have to rev to the moon that would be one thing. But Pontiac is synonymous with low rpm torque which caters to smaller that usual cams, tall gears tighter converters etc. all attributes that lend themselves to driveability. Ls' aren't magic and they idle rough and chop too when they start making big power. Show me the 600 lb/tq ls that doesn't have a little cadence at idle like a 455 would.

[Sirrotica]

How does one calculate cost efficiency? Is it based on just sticking with what you have, and dealing with the compromises of archaic technology, or having to fiind someone who knows how to tune your carb, because you lack the skill and desire to learn it? Is it sticking with the familiar and not wanting to change with the times?

First of all I probably know more about fuel injection, C3 computer controlled carbs, and conventional carbs than you'll ever know. Look in my signature, my daily driver is an LS2 05 GTO. I have over 40 years twisting wrenches for a living, I have no bias against late model fuel injected engines. Still a early muscle car IMO, should be true to the powerplant that came in it, you want fuel injection, retrofit it.

I agree that the swap is costly to do initially (it's a hobby, so a money pit, not an investment therein) but the gains are excellent and the potential is greater than any old poncho...if you want drivability and excessive performance. (Not quite possible to have both with a carb...said not quite)
I like the idea of setting and forgetting, not twiddling and hum-hawing whether it's too cold or hot...and this is on a stack car, not some, heavy cammed, flat tappet beast belching out ungodly amounts of torque while rendering 8mpg while cruising.
I think it's an excuse to not do it (swap), under the guise that it's too unfamiliar, too new and just plain wrong...lol.

I've done many engine swaps in my lifetime, I'm fully aware of what it takes to put something in a chassis it was never intended to be in. If anyone has a bias against something it is you that believes that a carb cannot be a reliable fuel metering device that will start and run well in any ambient temperature. If you have the tools and knowledge it can be done along with realistic fuel mileage figures. The cylinder heads are the gap between an LS engine and a Stratostreak engine and the ability of the ECM to manage the fuel and spark controls. The same technology can be applied to a Stratosteak engine, the heads is where they fall short.

Seriously though, I have always considered a carb, a controlled fuel leak and see no reason to not embrace the vast improvements an ls motor provides, ie. superior fuel economy, heads that flow for days in stock form (God helps us when they are ported) a car that you can plug up and it can tell you what ails it, with a plug-in and a few clicks.
Carbs be damned, fight what you fear, learn what's new...and who knows, you may actually like stepping out of th cave to embrace the electron and silicon age

You surely have made a bad guess of what I'm about, because your so far off base you might as well be in a different country.

A controlled fuel leak, obviously you don't know your way around a carburetor.

Not trying to sway anyone just dolling out my like everyone else.
Pulled out the original '68 350 in my Lemans and gave it to the junkyard for a nice little 5.3/4l60e conversion. Wit my C10 yanked out the sbc and tossed in a 6.0 but stuck with the TH350 until I get the funds to buy a 4l80e.

Since you've singled me out I've responded, please don't think you know me or about my thoughts. Your post really shows what you think you know about me, but you couldn't be further from the truth.

[mcshooter]

i know most folks on here would prefer to run the engines our cars came with including me... iam putting a ls3 engine along with the cats in my 1970 because iam afraid with our state and federal govms. our orginal carbed engines might be banned.. i think in not to distant future all cars with carbs will be banned. i remember where a new england dem introduced a bill to ban all cars made before 1985 and when questioned about car shows and cruiseins he said they can take them there on a trailer.with the epa we have all it would take to ban carb cars would be a stroke of the pen.. i hope iam am wrong.. where i live we have to pass a emission check to keep our license plates. i dont know what laws calif has but they usually lead the country in worthless laws reguarding autos.so i look that they will make it hard to run older cars with carbs first..

[Sirrotica]

First of all you can fail a smog check with any induction system if it's not operating properly. Fuel injection is not a cure all to pass emission testing. I personally have had to get a car through Tennessee emissions that took me 3 attempts with a carbed car with a catalytic convertor. I also know people that have failed emissions with fuel injection.

The beginning of this post was about substituting LS engines for Stratostreak engines, not what type of induction system are on said engines because you can buy an intake to run a carb on an LS engine as well as buy an aftermarket fuel injection setup to retrofit on to a Stratosteak engine. Doing an engine swap of an engine to pass non existent emission requirement is an excuse, not a reason.

If they ban pre 1985 cars off of the roads your still not going to be able to drive an LS equipped 1970 car........................

I have not one thing against fuel injected ECM managed cars, my concern is just because the engine came in a car equipped with tight emission controls does not mean it's the be all, end all, of powerplants, and I own one. I have an LS2 in my 2005 GTO, would I put one in my 1973 T/A, nope. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an LS engine, there is also nothing wrong with a 455 in my Q Jet equipped 73 T/A.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by mcshooter

i know most folks on here would prefer to run the engines our cars came with including me... iam putting a ls3 engine along with the cats in my 1970 because iam afraid with our state and federal govms. our orginal carbed engines might be banned.. i think in not to distant future all cars with carbs will be banned. i remember where a new england dem introduced a bill to ban all cars made before 1985 and when questioned about car shows and cruiseins he said they can take them there on a trailer.with the epa we have all it would take to ban carb cars would be a stroke of the pen.. i hope iam am wrong.. where i live we have to pass a emission check to keep our license plates. i dont know what laws calif has but they usually lead the country in worthless laws reguarding autos.so i look that they will make it hard to run older cars with carbs first..

If they do ever do this i might "BAN" myself and my tax dollars right out of this country. From an aesthetic point of view all cars made after 1985 should be banned. Moron politicians don't know anything about cars anyhow. They dont care what engine is in it, you could convert it to an EZ-GO electric golf cart drivetrain and if they didnt want the older car on the road, they would still hassle you over it.

[Nickv]

I don't think they will be banning my 72 GTO anytime soon.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by Nickv

I don't think they will be banning my 72 GTO anytime soon.

They wont get to ban any of our stuff any time soon. They may talk about it, but we are too "loud" a voice of opposition. If they ever would, we could ALL get together and go park up and down the streets in the Capitol, open up our exhaust and hold them all together at about 3000 rpms until they gave in LOL.

[FrankieT/A]

In my state, which is Florida, Jeb Bush the former president's brother was governor and discontinued emission testing altogether. The philosophy was that less that 5% fail anyway so what's the point? Incidentally, he got rid of affirmative action as well. Naturally only in the state of Florida.