[The Champ]

Reading all the recent postings (and not so recent) I've learned that what I thought I knew about my '64 is probably not all correct.

Here's the PHS sheet:



I do know that dealer 401 in zone 10 was Pittman Pontiac in Antioch, IL and that it was a 4bbl 4spd car with a 3.23 posi.

The car did have a tilt column, tach, backup lights, AM pushbutton radio when acquired.

It was a little rough though...





Appreciate any help from our resident experts!

[johnta1]

Does it have a reverb?

[The Champ]

It doesn't - but I didn't think that was possible with a convertible.

[John V.]

Champ, check out the decode I just posted for 63Banshee.

Yours is 3.23 Safe-T-Track (code 321 identifies Safe-T-Track and 3K confirms the ratio and Safe-T-Track).

343 - Power Steering & Power Brakes

392 - Very likely for the Tachometer (my article provides some additional insight)

Yours has a lot of other options but it would be easier if you got the article from Smoke Signals.

The main addition to my decodes since then, 415 is the Transistorized Ignition but yours doesn't have that option so should get a good idea of the correct decodes from my article.

[John V.]

Added a few more for ya.

Champ, check out the decode I just posted for 63Banshee.

Yours is 3.23 Safe-T-Track (code 321 identifies Safe-T-Track and 3K confirms the ratio and Safe-T-Track).

343 - Power Steering & Power Brakes

392 - Very likely for the Tachometer (my article provides some additional insight)

465 - Tinted Windshield & Inside Tilt Mirror

482 - Custom Wheel Discs (spinners)

502 - Tilt Steering Wheel

531 - Ivory Convertible Top

633 - Floor Mats Front & Rear

Yours has a lot of other options but it would be easier if you got the article from Smoke Signals.

The main addition to my decodes since then, 415 is the Transistorized Ignition but yours doesn't have that option so should get a good idea of the correct decodes from my article.

[The Champ]

John

Do I need to rejoin POCI to get a copy of your article? It appears that you need to login to look at the archives. Not a big deal if I need to do that, just wondering, and willing to pay to learn..

I'm confused with code 343 equaling PS & PB - as I have code 502 which translates (I thought) to PB and code 392 equaling the Tachometer - as I have code 452 which translates (once again, I thought) to a Tachometer - per the 1964 GTO Options "description" that came with my original PHS documents back in 1992.

Looking at the info you posted for 63Banshee - I also have some questions.

431 - Back-up Lamps - Mine is 43K and has back-up lamps - curious about the "K"

44C - Deluxe AM Pushbutton Radio w/ Manual Antenna - I have a 44C and an AM Pushbutton radio with Manual Antenna - but thought code 392 stood for the radio

452 - 2 spd wipers w/ washers - Have code 452 and have 2 spd wipers w/washers - but thought that was for the Tachometer

464 - Inside Tilting Day/Night Non-Glare Mirror - My code is 465. I do have an Inside Tilting Day/Night Mirror.

473 - Instrument Panel Pad & Electric Clock (this one isn't decoded yet with absolute certainty, anything you know to confirm or revise this decode is appreciated) - My code is 474 and I don't have IP Pad or Electric Clock. I also didn't have the Rear Speaker - Verbra Phonic that johnta1 mentioned.

50A - Custom Sports Steering Wheel - My code is 502 - which I thought was PB's.

605 - Visor Vanity Mirror & Remote Control Outside Mirror (since the car was equipped with all 3 mirror options, you can assume it was ordered with the Mirror Group Option, although unlike the '64 Pontiac & Fremont docs, the KC & Balt style doc does not indicate Group Options) - I have code 605. I did have a Visor Vanity Mirror, but had a standard outside rear view mirror - driver side only.

62A - Floor Console - My car did not have a console when purchased - and did not have anything coded under 62. I did add a console because I wanted one.

Other codes:

482 - Glove box lamp?

531 - Soft ray glass?

56K - No clue

633 - Mats, Floor, Front and Rear (631 and 632)

I realize that these are old cars and what was on the car when I acquired it in 1992 has little bearing on what it left the factory with.

I've always wondered about the tilt steering column as I see nothing on the broadcast sheet that would correspond to it - yet it would surprise me if someone went through the time and expense to add it.

[The Champ]

John

I see you posted again while I was typing...

465 - Tinted Windshield & Inside Tilt Mirror - Once again, I thought code 531 was Soft ray glass

482 - Custom Wheel Discs (spinners) - Had I known that back in 1992 - my car might still be running 14's with spinners. I figured mine had come with poverty caps - which did make it easy to convert to 15's and retain the "stock" look.

502 - Tilt Steering Wheel - Well, I was curious about this - but did think it meant PB's.

531 - Ivory Convertible Top - The color code C1A is where I thought the Ivory Convertible Top was designated

633 - Floor Mats Front & Rear - Hey, I was right!!!

Thanks for your help!

[John V.]

Champ, forget what PHS decoded for you, they tried (still try I guess) to decode the Chevy based codes using the Pontiac Sales Codes.

If you saw a '64 Pontiac Plant Manifest, you would understand how the Pontiac Sales Codes match up to the coding on the Manifest.

But it simply doesn't work for the '64 Balt & KC document, it doesn't even have the same no. of Boxes.

So Chevy "translated" the Pontiac Sales Codes into their own codes.

I assure you my decodes are more accurate and most of them are indisputable. Some of the less common options are difficult to pin down because so few cars are coded for them.

All docs with a code in Box 43 will have Back-up lamps.

My best interpretation is that 43K indicated a car that was ordered with the Basic Group Option, which included Back-up Lamps.

392 is the Pontiac Sales Code but 44C is how KC & Balt coded it on their form.

I added the 465 decode in my subsequent post.

My decode for 474 is Glove Box Lamp. I have posted for 63Banshee, the 3 options coded in Box 47 are I.P. Pad, Electric Clock, And Glove Box Lamp to the best of my knowledge. However it is less certain which code applies to the 7 different combos of these 3 options. 474 seems to be pretty certain based on your car and others.

I added the decode for 502 in my subsequent post, checks out with what you indicated too. Also explained a couple more for you.

56K - This Box has been tough to crack. It relates to various Lamp options not coded elsewhere. 56K may have been used when the Lamp Group Option was ordered but some of the included lamp options were coded in other Boxes. Nevertheless, good chance, this Box coded the balance of the lamp options that were part of the Lamp Group Option. This includes Courtesy Lamp (std on convertible), Ashtray/Lighter Lamp, Parking Brake Lamp, Luggage Lamp, and Underhood Lamp. 56K gave you all of them. Let me know if this adds up with the evidence on your car.

The lack of Remote Mirror is very curious. Could it have been swapped out at some point?

My article provides the corresponding Pontiac Sales Codes for each of the options on your form. Note, KC & Balt didn't code the GTO option itself (Sales Code 382), just identified it by note on the form. But the equipment items also make it clear that the car is a GTO by the engine, shocks, springs, etc.

I'm not sure if you can access the archives. I don't use that site since I get the hard copies. They might still sell back issues if you're interested.

I do have pdfs of it.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by John V.

Champ, forget what PHS decoded for you, they tried (still try I guess) to decode the Chevy based codes using the Pontiac Sales Codes.

I understand that - and is why I posted after reading some of the other threads.

The lack of Remote Mirror is very curious. Could it have been swapped out at some point?

Could it have been swapped out? Sure.

But wouldn't that have required replacing the door panel on the drivers side (I'm assuming that the control would be on the door panel)? There wasn't any welding that I can recall on the front fender either.

From the second photo in my original post - there is no "hole" for the remote mirror in the door panel. The panel was real rough - looked to be original to the car.

[YNOBIL]

More Info: Don Pitman Motors Inc.; 845 Main St. ; Antioch, IL

[63Banshee]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I understand that - and is why I posted after reading some of the other threads.



Could it have been swapped out? Sure.

But wouldn't that have required replacing the door panel on the drivers side (I'm assuming that the control would be on the door panel)? There wasn't any welding that I can recall on the front fender either.

From the second photo in my original post - there is no "hole" for the remote mirror in the door panel. The panel was real rough - looked to be original to the car.

Look for 1 quarter size hole and 2 screw holes on the underside of the dash on the key side.

[The Champ]

^

There is about a dime size hole with 2 screw holes on the underside of the dash below the convertible top switch.

So, maybe it did have the remote mirror when built...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by YNOBIL

More Info: Don Pitman Motors Inc.; 845 Main St. ; Antioch, IL

Ah - good call, Bill.

Thanks for joining in, JohnV.

K

[John V.]

The Owner's Manual illustrates the Remote Mirror Control location at the lower dash in Section 2.

In '64, the entire Remote Control Mirror option install was the responsibility of the Final Plant, Fisher Body was not involved.

Consequently, there was no 5 Group code used to identify it. The revised Remote Control Mirror for '65 did involve Fisher Body so a 5 Group code was used.

In '64, the holes for the Remote Control Mirror control at the lower edge of the dash were standard content, having them is no indication of the option having once been there. All '64 Tempests have those holes to facilitate the control mounting when needed.

Code 605 has been pretty conclusively deciphered. As I explained in the Decode article, this code is seen pretty commonly and common to see it in combination with a code indicating the Vanity Visor Mirror.

We also see the Mirror Group option commonly included on '64 Pontiac Plant cars, so easy to assume that the Mirror Group was a popular option.

Since you have the Vanity Visor Mirror and the Tilting Inside Mirror and the common codes, I believe your car was at least intended to have the Remote Control Mirror.

There were occasions that options were ordered but not installed and adjustments to the Dealer Invoice were made.

Since you have the door mounted mirror, perhaps a build error was made.

The KC/Balt code for the manual door mounted outside mirror has been found to be 61B and confirmed by Dealer sales paperwork. I have additional comments about this in the article. But I would say that your car was at least not intended to have the door mounted mirror.

Is there paint evidence to indicate the left front fender is original? Is it still possible to check for the fender mounting hole evidence?

Discrepancies like this complicated my effort to develop an accurate decode of the KC & Balt docs.

I'm pretty sure more than a few guys have tried to restore a KC or Balt GTO according to the decode they got from PHS which would have made a real mess of the car. Hopefully my decodes have helped avoid that. But it is still not perfect so don't want folks to think a car is wrong because it doesn't match my decode. Your remote mirror may be an example. Just because the decode is reasonably certain, still possible the car left the factory without it. But if you do discover welded up fender holes, I'd sure like to know.

[YNOBIL]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Ah - good call, Bill.

Thanks for joining in, JohnV.

K

This is getting a little off subject. I saved 2 newspapers back in 1967 that listed all the Chicago land and Northern Indiana Pontiac Dealers at that time. My friend Duncan in Vancouver now has them listed on his website.
http://www.oneownercollectorcar.com/...goland-dealers

[johnta1]

Too bad they didn't have the dealer numbers also.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by YNOBIL

This is getting a little off subject. I saved 2 newspapers back in 1967 that listed all the Chicago land and Northern Indiana Pontiac Dealers at that time. My friend Duncan in Vancouver now has them listed on his website.
http://www.oneownercollectorcar.com/...goland-dealers

Thank you; I was going to ask how you did that....

K

[John V.]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Does it have a reverb?

Originally Posted by The Champ

It doesn't - but I didn't think that was possible with a convertible.

The prevailing wisdom is that you could not get the reverb option in a '64 Tempest Custom Convertible nor a '64 Lemans Convertible.

However, I can tell you of one '64 Kansas City built GTO Convertible that shows the 5 Group code 2V on the Data Plate (5 Group Code for the Verbra-Phonic Rear Speaker)and code 44J on the PHS doc, which decodes as Deluxe Pushbutton AM Radio with Electric Antenna and Verbra-Phonic Rear Speaker (Pontiac Sales Codes 393 and 474). And the Reverb unit was in the car when the 1st retail owner took possession.

So at least one '64 Lemans convertible (with GTO option) did come thru with a factory reverb. Despite the Order Form and the Inspector's Guide showing at as Not Available for the convertibles. There is somewhat more to the story that might explain why the rule was "broken" for this particular car, but one more example to remind us, never say never.

[War eagle]

Off subject but one of our KC cars had the glove box mounted trunk release. According to PHS, 451 is the number but box 45 has 5 and box 46 has 1. I realize PHS has some trouble with the interp and one must add this and that to get something. They correctly noted that the car was equipt with the remote deck lid release. The Production Engine Number is correct but things like #431 Air cleaner--heavy duty doesn't seem to match anything. Anyway, how is remote decklid coded on the shipping order?

[John V.]

PHS "correctly" noted the Remote Deck Lid Release based on the code 5 in Box 45, but they were "wrong". I'm sure they also told you the car was equipped with the Tilt Steering Wheel (Pontiac Sales Code 454). On the Pontiac Plant Manifest, you would "add" Sales Code 451 (Remote Deck Lid Release) and Sales Code 454 (Tilt Wheel) and code a 5 in Box 45. Code 455 would then decode for those two options. But it doesn't work the same for the KC/Balt docs and that is where PHS screws up.

KC PHS Doc decode

455 - Dual Speed Electric Wipers (Pontiac Sales Code 402, version WITHOUT the washers)

461 - Tinted Glass - Windshield Only (Pontiac Sales Code 532)

431 - Back-up Lamps (Pontiac Sales Code 471)

War Eagle, if the subject car was equipped with Remote Control Deck Lid Release (Pontiac Sales Code 451), that is one of those very rarely seen options that I have not determined a decode for on the KC/Balt Form.

Can you post the PHS so I might figure out the code they used for it at KC & Balt?