[1978 T/A]

What degree key would I need. The link does not have an add to cart option which leads me to believe that they are out of stock.

I can get 2 degree offset keys from Butler. I have to place an order with them shortly for valve covers so I figure I will through this in as well.

[Doug Hopkins]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Yes, EXACTLY zero decked, and ran flawlessly for several years. The customer was trying to super-fine tune it as it was his "daily driver" at that time. So he bought into the BS that advancing the cam makes the engine more responsive at lower rpms, and improves efficiency, more torque, etc. (He'd have been better off to fine tune the vacuum advance and APT instead, but that didn't happen.)

That's a great theory, but my own testing with moving cams all over the place doesn't follow that logic. The 455 is a HUGE engine, with too much stroke and relatively long rods in it. Piston speed is super-fast, and they are very sensitive to the intake closing point, LSA, and actual seat timing. With tiny heads supporting them (by modern standards) they quickly pinch off a LOT of upper mid-range and top end charge advancing the cams in them. They also very quickly become octane sensitive trying to improve cylinder filling at low rpms.

My own engine has SD"s Old Faithful cam I it, idles nearly smooth at 750rpms, tach barely moves when placed in gear, and ICL is 109.5 degrees. SCR is also 11 to 1, and it EASILY manages 87 octane fuel on a daily basis. I put better fuel in it on my way to the track, but it actually slows the car down about .04-.05, but I do sleep better at night.....Cliff

Here's a clip from Norwalk, with initial timing at 6 degrees (26 total timing), and shifting at 5000rpm's to stay roll bar legal. Notice that it still idles smooth in and out of gear at 750rpm's, and I'm NOT using MVA to run the timing clear off the scale, ported vacuum to the advance instead.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zVdoLR-VzM

Hi Cliff, Was wondering what rear gear ratio and tire size you are using to acheive the numbers you are running and what kind of RPM in the traps. My combination that i am building is similiar to yours, only my car is about 200 lbs. heavier right now. Mine has a 3.23 gear in it, and I found a 4.10 Richmond gear for $50, tire is a 28 in QTP Hoosier. Bought the gear and have not installed it yet ,and was thinking it might be too much. I was thinking a 3.90 would be about the max. What are you thoughts on the gear ratio. Not worried about highway use, only over revving on the track on the top end.

[Cliff R]

3.42 gears and 27" tall tires. Ran equally as well with 28" tall tires.

RPM's with the 28" tall tires were right at 5000 at 119-120mph, and about 5200 with the 27" tall tires.

The combination really wants a bit more converter and gear, it "lays" out quite a while in low gear then rushes pretty hard to the finish line.

It would be pretty much ideal with 3.90 gears and a 4000-4200rpm converter...IMHO......Cliff

[Pontiac Derek]

At 10.7 I'd install it at 110 since it's streched already, new chains will stretch a 108ilc to 110,I've made awesome power with that cam at 110 with new chains and no cons to doing so fwiw oh chrysler offset keys work on the camshaft, summit makes a really nice double roller Bilit timing set for 70$ that has 9-keyways fwiw
Derek Stewart

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

3.42 gears and 27" tall tires. Ran equally as well with 28" tall tires.

RPM's with the 28" tall tires were right at 5000 at 119-120mph, and about 5200 with the 27" tall tires.

The combination really wants a bit more converter and gear, it "lays" out quite a while in low gear then rushes pretty hard to the finish line.

It would be pretty much ideal with 3.90 gears and a 4000-4200rpm converter...IMHO......Cliff

I'm running the same basic setup but with a Holley,3200 convertor 28 inch tires and a 3.08 gear and slightly heavier and run mid 11's at 118.
I agree with the convertor and gear choice that Cliff mentioned...high tens easy!

[Tim Corcoran]

If you are within one degree I would call it good. One degree will not make a difference one way or the other

[Cliff R]

I tried the converter without the gearing and it didn't work out so well, ran 7.20's in the 1/8th mile, but lost almost 2mph being up against the converter so long in low gear. If I had installed 3.90 or taller gearing, it would have been a "home-run". Still respectable times for 3640lbs race weight, DOT tires, full exhaust and 3.42 rear gears....IMHO.....Cliff

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

If you are within one degree I would call it good. One degree will not make a difference one way or the other

I bet even 2 degrees won't be felt and tough to even measure on the dyno.

[1978 T/A]

I did email Dave the other day and said he shoots from 109-110 with a stretched chain. Guess that's the route I'm going to take.

I appreciate all your guys feedback, puts me one step closer to finally having my car on the road again!

[Skip Fix]

Get that thing together Karl so you can take me for a spin!

[1978 T/A]

Believe me Skip I'm trying!

Classes started up for me last week so my free time that I did have is now consumed with studying. Next week I plan to retard the cam and after that I will probably have my builder finish it up. I would rather do the work myself (it's cheaper and rewarding) but with school taking presidence right now I won't have the time to do the work myself. That and I also don't have any space at my house lol.

[428GTO70]

Hi guys, was out degreeing my Old Faithful and figured I would add what I came up with to the discussion.

I followed the recommended Comp Cams directions sheet that came with the cam using the ICL method, although they describe doing it with the heads installed, I just went off the top of the lifter for my measurement point.

After establishing top dead center using a piston stop and degree wheel I setup a dial indicator over the #1 intake lifter and found max lift on the intake lobe which was .380 and matched what the cam card said, which tells me the dial indicator must be setup pretty accurately.

I then zero'd out the dial indicator at max lift and took degree measurements at .050" before and after max lift, which came out at 149 and 68. I then added them together to get 217, and dividing by 2 puts me right at 108.5 which seems like close enough to me.

This was using a Rollmaster Red Series chain set at straight up that I got from Scott Sims with his retainer plate mod(nice product).

Reading through this I was wondering if anyone can confirm that I did this correctly? I feel like I did but always like a little reassurance Sorry to hijack the thread a little but I figured this would be helpful info to anyone else who comes across this thread as it seems relevant.

[1978 T/A]

Sounds like you got it right. Making sure the degree wheel is setup is critical, so as long as you got that on the money you should be good.

[428GTO70]

Cool, Yeah I believe I got the degree wheel setup right. Using the piston stop I rotated the engine so it hit the stop on both sides and made sure the pointer was pointing at the same degree on each side of the TDC mark, on mine it was I think 12degrees before and after. then I removed the piston stop.

I was happy that it was pretty much right on at straight up, for some reason I had it in my head that I would have to mess with moving the chain set or even buying offset keys.

I also bolted on my KRE heads and measured my pushrod length (9.050) and ordered up a set of those as well. Things are starting to come together!!

[jonmachota78]

Originally Posted by 428GTO70

Cool, Yeah I believe I got the degree wheel setup right. Using the piston stop I rotated the engine so it hit the stop on both sides and made sure the pointer was pointing at the same degree on each side of the TDC mark, on mine it was I think 12degrees before and after. then I removed the piston stop.

I was happy that it was pretty much right on at straight up, for some reason I had it in my head that I would have to mess with moving the chain set or even buying offset keys.

I also bolted on my KRE heads and measured my pushrod length (9.050) and ordered up a set of those as well. Things are starting to come together!!

Interesting. Ive got same cam heads and rocker arms and i came up with the exact same pushrod length! I got my smith bros pushrods through Butler fwiw