[ho428]

What I need is someone on this forum to build a similar car and come race with us in Outlaw Vintage. We have a 1st gen and 3rd gen, but no 2nd. Only a 2nd gen Camaro

[Wick]

Several years ago a forum member had a '76 (?) Trans Am they had found that was SCCA or something like that. Anyone remember that car? It was for sale at one time.

[Tazzz2]

Ho428,,, don't know what your class requires but I did run VIR last year in the 73TA at a HPDE 1 something or the other weekend.... I had a gas running there and had a really good instructor riding shotgun that indicated that I could really almost jump to HPDE II immediately... The track was a "blast" to go run on and I'd like to build my next car with a cage and fire system like my Formula for track days specifically...

I think a set of the new Rivals street tires might surprise a few guys out there as they say the tires are compatible with the R1's or the Hoosiers R6's.... Guess time will tell as I fully intend to get back out on the track with my cars after they clear me from all this eye surgery I've been dealing with this year.....

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

Also from what I've read Pontiac and TRACO got 490-510 hp from the RA IV 303 - that's more than the Chevy's etc. just some bad luck after - Jerry Titus's accident etc.

Interesting...

[cuz68]

Did anyone find out the price for it?

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

Mike they did make the 303 RA IV Work - Jerry Titus was hot lapping the field in one test in his 70 T/A and one of the 2 Built is still running with that engine in the Historic Trans Am SCCA Series

Originally posted by MikeNoun - They could never make enough power with the 303 RAV, so even back in 1968, the Pontiacs running in the Trans Am Series ran small block Chevys. You had a dozen teams running Chevys, thousands of hours of r&d provided by Chevrolet, as well as the rich history of small block Chevrolets running in all sorts of auto racing series, and the 303 RAV just wasn't going to be competitive without a lot more development. I think I recall reading that the RAV 303 was down about 50-75 hp from the 302 Chevys, partly because the RAV ports were simply too big for the 303. They went so far as to use RAIV heads on the 303 to boost some torque, but eventually they gave up and simply used the proven small block Chevy 302 to get track time for the Firebirds.

I was referring to the RAV 303 that didn't make the necessary power, not the RAIV version.

In 1970, the SCCA changed the rules to allow destroked engines, so Titus used a RAIV block with a 2.85" stroke to displace 304.5 cid, and highly modified RAIV heads, basically making a "baby RAIV". The RAV 303 was, unfortunately, not very competitive.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by cuz68

Did anyone find out the price for it?

How much are YOU willing to pay?

[cuz68]

The same price you are nothing.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by cuz68

The same price you are nothing.

You Win! Thank You.

[Formulabruce]

I have owned a couple 68 Camaro Z-28 engines ( 302) that came stock in 68 Firebirds to race.( 305 CUin limit SCCA) Made in the USA and exported across the border to race in Canada. WE dragged a couple home in the late 80's. In 70 the SCCA rules changed to 350 Cu in ( Hence the Birth of the original LT-1 ). As Mike said, Raced used all the Homework that was already done, and so did TRACO. The Pontiac Engines wouldnt go 7,000 RPMs to my knowledge.
TO redo this in 2013, I bet a Pontiac 350 HO "could" be built to compete with a LT-1.
Chad, like the "Thong" Style stripe on that car of yours, the flat paint on purpose? Doesnt look typical for your Carbon fiber expertise??

[ho428]

SVRA still requires the 305 cu in limit. I tried everything I could think of to build a Pontiac, just not easy or cheap to do still, even after all these years and tech advances, the parts just aren't readily available or are priced out of reason.
HSR allows 305, 366 and up to 454 in various classes, a good 366 can be built, just not very easily using a destroked big bore engine, a 440 is a better and much easier build, but the class entries are limited, most cars run in the 305 to 366 classes so I run with NASA which has pwr-wt, not cu in limits.
The few Pontiacs that do run SVRA still run the 302 SBC. IMO, what's the point.

[Keith Vrabec]

Wish I was closer...

I recall that Firebird being high in the 6 figure range a couple years ago. $200-$300K

Like the red Titus 68 firebird, (#26 car I recall?) it is way high for what it is, in my opinion.

The problem with the (well, mine) museum-piece correctly restored orig vintage race car is that it really doesn't belong on the track. Bad brakes, glass windows, old welded up control arms and cages, not correct seat, no good mirrors, no fire system, etc etc etc on the Tyner GP. Really not safe at any speed....aside from a parade lap. Funny story, when we took it to Darlington and some of the original crew was around, they laughed at the old upper control arms on the car. James Lee, the former crew chief informed me that they should be changed out, being that they were welded up 40 years ago with torches and coat hangers.....as was the cage.

I am not sure as to the condition of the Firebird, whether a correct resto or a functional resto with modern safety updates but it seems track worthy. But it seems that if you're going to put something on the track to bend up (inevitable) why would you do it with a quarter mil car rather than a more safe modern chassis and plunk an old body on it? Then if you shunt, you don't destroy history.

[keith k]

I recall seeing it listed somewhere with an actual price in the last year or so. I believe it was over $300K.

Neat car, but that's nuts. They could run it through B-J with no reserve and I'll bet it would be hard pressed to hit $100K.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by keith k

I recall seeing it listed somewhere with an actual price in the last year or so. I believe it was over $300K.

Neat car, but that's nuts. They could run it through B-J with no reserve and I'll bet it would be hard pressed to hit $100K.

Yes I too remember seeing it listed FS @ that $300k price point. It may have been the Hemmings ad or a vintage racing publication website or ad, CR.

[ho428]

While I do understand the Historical significance of some race cars, they do seem to be priced way out there when compared to building an identical car from scratch.

That car could be built dropping a zero off that price.
Building it, not having it built.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I was referring to the RAV 303 that didn't make the necessary power, not the RAIV version.

In 1970, the SCCA changed the rules to allow destroked engines, so Titus used a RAIV block with a 2.85" stroke to displace 304.5 cid, and highly modified RAIV heads, basically making a "baby RAIV". The RAV 303 was, unfortunately, not very competitive.

Heres a fellow ( Buck Baker ) that did make the 303 RAV Work and did Quite well in the Grand American National series

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

I have owned a couple 68 Camaro Z-28 engines ( 302) that came stock in 68 Firebirds to race.( 305 CUin limit SCCA) Made in the USA and exported across the border to race in Canada. WE dragged a couple home in the late 80's. In 70 the SCCA rules changed to 350 Cu in ( Hence the Birth of the original LT-1 ). As Mike said, Raced used all the Homework that was already done, and so did TRACO. The Pontiac Engines wouldnt go 7,000 RPMs to my knowledge.
TO redo this in 2013, I bet a Pontiac 350 HO "could" be built to compete with a LT-1.
Chad, like the "Thong" Style stripe on that car of yours, the flat paint on purpose? Doesnt look typical for your Carbon fiber expertise??

The 303 RA IV was good for 7500-8000 rpm - the HO Racing guys etc. got 9000 rpm out of their small stroke Pontiac - its been done

[MikeNoun]

Success came with destroked 400 and RAIV heads (the baby RAIV), which is what they ran in the SCCA Series in 1970-1972.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Jeff Young : Project Engineer and Senior Project Engineer
Accomplishment: Horsepower development on the 303 Trans Am series

"I stayed in touch with Jeff and told him I’d like for him to be on Special Projects when he returned to Pontiac after graduation. That was in June 1969, and he took over for Leo Hilke as project engineer on the Pontiac 303 Trans-Am series racing engine. Up until that point, the 303 produced a less-than-competitive 375 hp. Jeff theorized that Pontiac’s use of a Ford-style tunnel-port on the short-deck 303 was the hindrance to horsepower advancement. Tom and I were already considering dropping further development of the tunnel-port, and Jeff’s airflow research on port design supported this. When he told us he didn’t like the tunnel-port either, it was gone."

On May 29, 1972, we took Second Place at the SCCA Trans-Am race at Bryar Motorsports Park in Loudon, New Hampshire. On June 4, 1972, we led all 75 laps at the SCCA Trans Am race at Mid Ohio and won First Place. On July 15, 1972, we took Second Place at the SCCA Trans-Am race at Road America in Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Young recalled the "baby RAIV" made 475 hp at 8,200 rpm, but Tom Nell said no, that was an exaggeration. He provided HPP with a dyno sheet from 1972, at the pinnacle of their development, which shows 453 hp at 7,500 rpm at the peak (sheet below).

[MikeNoun]

Some more pics!

[Wareagle]

Mike found that article about the Dyno chart - page 2 - no mention of the 475 hp @ 8200 rpm being a exaggeration - they just didn't have that chart - I Believe Jeff Young - were did you read that Tom Nell said no to this ?

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...the_pontiac_v8