[68gtoMN]

Ok Guys, I am in correspondence with a gentleman who is very insistent that the 1968 GTO he purchased from the original owner came equipped with a 1969 endura from the factory. He claims that since it's a late build car, that is explanation enough - see snipet from email exchange below:

The original owner claims he never changed the front bumper and when I got the car it had the original paint. I believe him as the car was never in an accident. Actually this car has been in storage mostly since about 1975.

The date code on one head is E178. I would bet this car was ordered around the 3rd week of June and built later.

May 17 1968 casting date does not support this theory. He has no way to back up his claims of original paint on endura either. I have never heard of such an instance in the 33+ years I have owned a 1968 GTO and been in the hobby. With nearly 88,000 GTOs built in '68 and with the thousands of replacement parts built for repairs, I can't imagine a scenario where this would have been possible.

Anyone have information to the contrary that would support such a claim?

[cuz68]

I dont believe him. There were just too many around back then as you say, What color is it?

[The Boss]

I would doubt it as well - based solely on experience with late built cars.

What plant?

[GOAT WHORE]

No real knowledge here but, there is no real knowledge on his part either. All he has is hearsay. I am really sceptical about stuff like that, need way more proof then "the guy I bought it from said". Jmo. However anything is possible.

[Keith Seymore]

I doubt it.

There have been claims of future model year parts pulled ahead but none have been substantiated.

I happen to know that we would never pull ahead a part that is highly visible (a model year differentiator) or advertisable in the media or highly coordinated with other parts, since I have been part of making those decisions.

I am writing a couple work orders today to pull some future model year parts ahead to de-couple them from the model year breakpoint, but it's super obscure stuff like additional holes in the wheelhouse, or fender inner, etc.

K

[1969GTO]

Does he have the documents that we can now get from [PHS]?
Also....the only difference that I know of between the 68 and 69 Endura nose is the 68 had an emblem on them.

[robz]

Strange that they would have '69 GTO parts available in a plant this early in the prod year...Just curious but was it a special order colour?

I agree only diff is the Pontiac Emblem on the nose, so maybe it was damaged and holes filled in?

[steve v]

Originally Posted by robz

I agree only diff is the Pontiac Emblem on the nose, so maybe it was damaged and holes filled in?

.....or it's possible the holes for the emblem were never drilled & the emblem was simply left off.

If it has 69 grilles on it then I would agree that it did not leave the factory that way.

[Verdoro 68]

Not original. Memories fade and stories change over 45 years. One possibility might have been a warranty repair early on.

My '68 has a '69 timing cover and water pump on it. None of the previous owners (back to '82) can tell me how it got there but I know it didn't leave the factory that way. I've always suspected it happened while replacing the nylon timing gear.

FWIW my car was built on May 17 in Arlington and has a '68 bumper.

[MikeNoun]

I would guess that 99.9% of these "mysteries" were simply items that were replaced under warranty within the first year the car was built. Think back to all the vehicles you've owned, whether it was a GM, Ford, whatever, and the trivial things that you took the car or truck back into the dealer to have fixed during that first year, and the next year's part was used. We had a 1993 Bonneville where the Service Dept damaged the interior door panel while trying to replace the driver's seat sometime in 1994. They mistakenly ordered the wrong color door panel as a replacement, and because they felt bad, and because they had us drive all the way out to the dealer before realizing their mistake, they actually pulled a gray door panel from another Bonneville they had on the lot. I often wonder if someone pulled off that door panel 20 years later, and wondered how a 1994 panel got on a 1993 Bonneville.

As for this GTO, I'd be curious how a "late build" 1968 would have a 1969 bumper. The plants did a shut down while they changed over to new model year production, so it doesn't make much sense a 1968 GTO could have been built with a 1969 bumper. A more plausible theory may be that this 68 GTO sat on a dealer lot for a while before being sold, someone damaged the nose jockeying the car around the dealer lot, the dealer's body shop installed a new 1969 bumper, and then this guy bought the car.

But an even MORE plausible story may be the owner had the bumper replaced sometime back in the 1970's and never realized there was a difference between 1968 and 1969 GTO bumpers, and is now too embarrassed and stubborn to admit the error. With the car possibly being resprayed in the 1970's (or a bumper match), it now appears original today.

The only example I can think of where a "future" part may have been installed on a current year car may be when the 1969 F-body production went a few months into the 1970 model year before the new 70-1/2's were ready.

[gto4evr]

In my experiences with endura noses, I've seen a difference between 68 and 69 in the area where it meets the fenders. 69's were square cut in that small relief area for the endura to hood front gap and 68 had a "swoop" curve instead of the right angle cut. Now if that's specific to a manufacturer, (if there were multiple ones) I can't say but I've had 3 69 enduras with the square cut and I've had 2 68's with that swoop cut.

[north]

gto4evr I've noticed what you mean about those bumpers, but i think its more a running change then a 68 vs 69 thing.

In general I think that people sometimes mix running changes with model year anomalies.

my GTO convert Fremont July 69 build) has many "70" items;

closed style intake (but with late May 69 casting date matching rest of original engines)
aluminum rocker moldings
plastic (versus vinyl) windlace at rear door opening

None of these are 1970 parts, just running changes

[muscle_collector]

don't know about his, but I have a 68 gto built 07C and it has a 69 nose on it with 68 grills. it is an original paint car that I bought back in the early 80's and the original owner swore to me that it came that way. who knows.

[hakansan]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

don't know about his, but I have a 68 gto built 07C and it has a 69 nose on it with 68 grills. it is an original paint car that I bought back in the early 80's and the original owner swore to me that it came that way. who knows.

I bought a ´68 GTO conv. in 1981 and it had the nose w/out the emblem and was a repainted car when I bought it. When I repainted it a I found the original paint on all bodyparts and it had the original Verdoro Green paint on it... Even on the front bumper. Don´t have the VIN# but maybe I can get it. It was an Arlington built car! I have read somewhere before that not all ´68 had the emblem but I´m not sure where. I think earlier PY & Ames catalogs stated some had the emblem and some not...
Anyway, the car I bought in ´81 came to Sweden in ´74.

Håkan

[JVM225]

Whatever caused the bumper mix up, I doubt it happened at the factory.
I bought another brand of car new back in the eighties. When I went to pick it up it had suffered a bunch of scratches on the deck lid. Looked like a cat scratched it up or something. I told the salesman I wasn't going to take the car, and didn't want a new car with a repainted deck lid. We struck a deal. The salesman had the shop take a deck lid off of another brand new car that was the same color, install it on my car, and I was on my way.
It was a lot easier for them to do then reversing the registration process to replace the car.
Things weren't all that different in the 60's.
I bought my 68 GTO from the second owner about 16 or 17 years ago. He had bought it in California from the original owner in the late 80's, brought it to NY, and saved copies of the original owners registration. The original owner had it for 20 years.
PHS said my car was delivered new to one California Dealership. I tracked down and spoke with the original owner a couple of times right after I bought the car from the second owner. He intimately remembered the car he cherished for 20 years. Including telling me that he bought it "off the showroom floor" brand new in 1968 from a California dealer other than the one PHS had on record. Unfortunately he no longer had any original paperwork for the car.
My guess is that the original dealer needed a GTO in a different color for a customer, made a few calls, found a nearby dealer to swap with, and then put the car he got in return on the showroom floor.
There is no telling what happens to cars once they get to a dealership. Parts may be swapped, options added to make a sale, or whole cars traded to satisfy a customer request.
My guess is the 68 in question may have suffered some minor damage to the original Endura while in the dealer's possession, they had a new 69 sitting on the lot in the same color, made the swap to get the 68 delivered, and then addressed the damaged bumper.
There may be a 69 running around out there that was delivered new with a repaired 68 bumper. Maybe the dealer got a replacement Endura for the donor car. Who knows?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by gto4evr

In my experiences with endura noses, I've seen a difference between 68 and 69 in the area where it meets the fenders. 69's were square cut in that small relief area for the endura to hood front gap and 68 had a "swoop" curve instead of the right angle cut. Now if that's specific to a manufacturer, (if there were multiple ones) I can't say but I've had 3 69 enduras with the square cut and I've had 2 68's with that swoop cut.

Only one supplier for the endura front end - Inland.

One supplier was enough (trouble), in this case....



Usually with a new technology or a somewhat tricky part we try to keep it down to just one supplier.

K

[dataway]

I've got an 07A with all the normal 68 parts on it. I've owned it since 1976.
JohnnyB