[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by tom s

REAL muscle cars have 3 pedals!PERIOD!Tom

Yep, trucks too.

I prefer a clutch pedal in my ride, not all of them have it but I prefer them over a slush box

[Sirrotica]

Nothing like going for 3rd and having the shifter jam or just simply missing the shift and losing a race, never happens with an automatic. All my early owned GTOs (4) and a 67 326 HO Firebird were my early owned muscle cars and were all 4 speeds. I was assured that you absolutely needed a manual transmission to go real fast, until I bought my 69 GTO (400, T400, 3.23 original gear changed over to 4.33 gears and headers with a solid roller cam, street car).

The 2 cars that really convinced me that I didn't need a 4 speed was when the T300 went south in my 67 Le Mans I put a long tail T400 in it. Around the same time my friends 65 Le Mans T300 took a dump and he wanted a 4 speed in his so we put a BW T10 in it. Both cars were 326 2 bbl cars with 2.56 axles. My car would eat his alive from a roll or a standstill, didn't matter I always won even though he had an extra gear.

All the complaining about not being able to shift either up or down is a lot of BS, I shift my 05 GTO up and down through the gears all the time, but if I don't want to shift it I can just put it in 4th and let it shift by itself. The 04-06 GTOs are proof there isn't any performance loss with an automatic, 0-60 exactly the same times.

My 73 T/A 455 with 71 HO heads and a T400 I built to handle and raced it in the SCCA regional and won C/Prepared for the season with 4 firsts and 2 seconds won the season for the class. Ran against other stick cars and had no problems beating most of them, can't go around corners with an auto or downshift them? BS!!! Anyone here recall Jim Hall the Texan engineer that built and drove the built the infamous Chapparal road race cars during the mid 60s? These cars had T400 derivative manually shifted transmissions in them with 5000 stall converters.

During my manual transmission era I broke more transmissions, clutches, driveshafts, U joints, and rear axles and was spending more money and time under the car instead of driving them.

After I graduated from school I built 2 bubble top 61 Pontiacs for dirt tracks and in the period from 70-73. At that time all oval track cars had sticks in them and so did these cars. I was in partnership with another guy and he ripped me off and we split. I then built my 67 Le Mans in to a 67 Le Mans/GTO clone (picture of #35 in my signature pictures) for the dirt track with the T400 already in it I just transplanted a 400 engine in it. I was kinda in uncharted territory but figured it would work just fine. Won 13 times in 2 years with the combo, nothing bad about the combo. When I moved up a class I built a 69 GP SJ 428 with a T400. I ran the car for 3 years against all stick cars and never was at any disadvantage.

So I've run both types of transmissions in at least 3 different High Performance Pontiac applications, and have won more than my share of events with automatics and see no disadvantages to running an automatic over a stick. Also from 2004-2008 I drove a semi, of course most of the trucks were sticks and I have changed gears too many times to even count. Even with only using the clutch to start out and stop and floating the gears while upshifting and downshifting, I'm really over rowing a transmission through the gears for 12+ hours every day.

One other application I have run both types of transmissions in, a wrecker/snowplow/service truck, I'd take an auto hands down for that application too. That said, I currently own a 88 S1600 IH truck, formerly a U Haul with a 26 foot box on it that I shortened the chassis and have added a wrecker body to it. It has a 5 speed in it, but if it had an Allison in it, it would be fine with me. I'm not going to convert it because I probably see little advantage to spending the money or time to switch it.

I'm going to build 2 more Hi Po street cars in the future and they will both have 4L80E transmissions in them, my preference, and my cars. No advantage to using a manual transmission in these cars, old technology. It's like keeping a points distributor because it came with one originally................

[george kujanski]

You can always push start a manual.......a starter prob with an auto, you are dead. Been there.

George

[arbys]

It used to be if you got an automatic up to 30-35 MPH and then dropped it in "low" you could get it going. Now how many want scrapes on the rear bumper to get it up to speed?

[Sirrotica]

Only automatics with a rear transmission pump can be push started, mostly 64 and older, and not all of them could be push started. My cars start with the starter so I have no need to push them.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

My cars start with the starter so I have no need to push them.

My cars typically start with a starter also.

But the point is/was - what if they don't?

With a stick, you can start the car. And many of us have been there, did that, done that...

[400 4spd.]

I didn't get the impression that Paul was asking about winning a plastic trophy on a small town dirt track.
If so, it sounds like an automatic is the only way to go.

[pont3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

My cars typically start with a starter also.

But the point is/was - what if they don't?

With a stick, you can start the car. And many of us have been there, did that, done that...

This is true, but only to a certain point. But ONLY if your no-start condition is due to a dead battery. You can push a car for a thousand miles and it still won't start if you have fuel or ignition problems.

After over 40 years of driving, (I started driving in my dad's '52 Ford truck w/a v8 and three on the tree when I was thirteen) I can't remember the last time I had a battery-related starting problem where I couldn't just connect some jumper cables or run out and get a new battery.

Bottom line is, (and this is not directed at you, Champ), is that we all have the same OR different preferences when it comes to certain issues. Neither choice is wrong to the RIGHT person.

However, trying to apply others' preferences to your own personal satisfaction is an exercise in futility. In my early years 75 percent of my friends and colleagues thought drug useage was better than non-useage. I didn't follow their lead, either. Go with what YOU like and don't worry about how popular you will be. Your personal satisfaction means more, as long as it affects NO one other than you.

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by 400 4spd.

I didn't get the impression that Paul was asking about winning a plastic trophy on a small town dirt track.
If so, it sounds like an automatic is the only way to go.

Correct. Just around the area cruising. Sure I like to hammer it at a stop light on e in a while but I don't know where my passion in transmissions lie. Based on the posts in this thread, your either a man shift guy or an automatic guy. Not sure which one I am which is the reason for this post. I had no idea how cut and dry the transmission preference was.

If I buy the car, I guess I'll find out.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by The Champ

My cars typically start with a starter also.

But the point is/was - what if they don't?

With a stick, you can start the car. And many of us have been there, did that, done that...

Then I tow it, you did read that I own a wrecker in the above post correct? I also own 3 tow dollies so I have absolutely no problem getting the car home. The other option would be to fix it where it sits, your going to have to do it sooner or later anyway. My sole reason for having a stick would not be so I could bump start it, if and when the starter/battery/wiring, fails. I've push started plenty of cars (usually belonging to someone else) but that may only need to be done once in the cars life, pretty feeble reason to row the gears over and over, but if that's what floats your boat, have at it.

Anyone know how rare a 73 Grand Am with a 4 speed is?
Less than 200 made, and I owned one. When the clutch went out of it at around 40,000 miles, 1976, I pulled the transmission out and replaced it with a T400, that's how much better I like automatics over sticks.

Reminds me of owning some of my early 4 speed cars with glass packs, when your in your teens it sounds good to you and you think it's the greatest, as you get older it's just unnecessary noise the draws cops like flies to honey. My cars start with the starter and the exhaust isn't real loud, when you stand on it you can hear it, just cruising it's mild.

So other than you can bump start a car with a stick, any other advantage over an automatic, and I'm not talking preferences, solid advantages, something you can't do with an automatic? I can think of many advantages over a stick, some I've already listed.

Should all muscle cars have drum brakes too? that's what most of them came with, or would you agree that discs are an better choice and more efficient and a good choice for a performance modification. More current technology that makes the musclecar safer and easier to use especially if it's driven more than 1,000 miles a year just to shows, or is a show car that would have points deducted if it is other than bone stock from the factory.

My opinion is stated and I'm not going to get all hung up arguing about merits each have, I know why I prefer an automatic and I've had both options, raced and street driven.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 400 4spd.

I didn't get the impression that Paul was asking about winning a plastic trophy on a small town dirt track.
If so, it sounds like an automatic is the only way to go.

If you bothered to read the post, only a portion of it was about oval track racing, I also covered 6 street cars a 67 Le Mans T400 326, a 65 Le Mans 326 T10 4 speed, and a 69 GTO 400/400, as well as a 67 326 HO 4 speed Firebird, and a street driven 73 T/A 455/T400 that I autocrossed in the post. My 05 GTO is mentioned and has never been on a race track, all street driven cars. It's all there in English, if you can comprehend it. I didn't get the impression that you even read the post, other than cherry pick the information about oval track racing.

I also mentioned two project street cars I'm working on that will also be equipped with a 4L80E transmissions, because no matter what I'm driving or where I'm driving it, I prefer it be equipped with an automatic. I guess the adage about a 4 speed adding inches to your manhood is alive and well, glad I don't need any additional inches...............

BTW, we got paid money when we raced and placed in the top 15 in a feature, and top 3 in heat races, trophies sometimes too, money is better though. I'm done, have fun.

[Formulabruce]

I went 4 Speed.. best decision I ever made!
Dual Gate too! now I can afford to drive a couple hours to a show

[1967Tempest]

I like the manual better. That said, the Lightning Rods are pretty damn cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nSGrfzJdd0

[65blackplate]

the 4 speed is more for sure more fun to drive but after looking for the right car for soo long I was not going to pass up my 65 with the slush box
body and condition is way more important to me

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by pont3

This is true, but only to a certain point. But ONLY if your no-start condition is due to a dead battery.

The last time I had to push start a car, the battery had plenty of juice.

Problem was an intermittent no start problem I had been trying to solve for over a month.

At first, it would just take a few extra turns of the key. Thought maybe it was the starter that had been on the car for 17 years (that wasn't new to start with). Seeing as how I had a new RobbMC starter sitting at home waiting for my new 462 - I did the easy thing and replaced the starter.

Coming home from the Iola Old Car show (200 plus miles away) I threw a power steering belt halfway home. Had to stop to take the remnants of the belt off.

It was Sunday in a small town over 100 miles from home and now the car won't start. I can drive without power steering, but had to push start the car to get home.

After I got home, the car restarted with the ignition as normal...

Ended up checking the wiring from stem to stern.

Turned out to be a wiring problem right up by the firewall.

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Then I tow it, you did read that I own a wrecker in the above post correct?

When you are 100 miles from home, what good do your wreckers do you?

Not busting your balls...

I prefer sticks. I feel more engaged with the car that way. You can buy/drive whatever you want.

[Alvin]

This thread is another one of those funny as chit "Paul asking a 'your opinion' questions"... thanks – again – for the entertainment Paul!

4-spd & Auto: Personally I own, enjoy and drive both.

The answer really depends on what roads and conditions the vehicle in question will be used:

• Congested “Low Speed” Urban Driving or “High Speed” Open Road Rural or Highway driving.

Can tell you, nothing like blowing the doors off of a 4-spd thru the twisties or from a standing start with a Turbo 350 or 400 with, say, a 2:56 LSD gear...especially fun against an over geared MOPAR, etc. running 3:90s, 4:11s etc... Up in smoke while I'm down the road.

Have used a Turbo Trans to down shift with engine torque thru apex on the open back roads...beat same vintage L-82 4-spd Vettes, etc. for over 100,000 miles on an original Poncho. It can be loads of fun. Ask anyone who's learned how to use a factory consol mounted Dual Gate or T/A Automatic “Slap-shifter”.

So you asked about “vintage” cars…Here’s my take on one in our possession:

• ’73 Grand Am 400 Turbo 400 w 3:08 – Excellent “Grand Touring” drive, low speed stop and go or sustained 70mph highway speed no problem. Nothing like downshifting and winding this Poncho out in passing gear; docile “boat” comes alive, often surprising others like all “heck” has broke loose. Perfect for all around Texas driving.

Same w using our modern VW tiptronic auto in "manual" mode...I've left many a Beemer, etc. in the dust on the beltway by "dropping down a gear or two" and spooling up the Revs and Turbo...when the other vehicle did one of those speed up to keep us from passing on the open highway. Excellent RPM, Engine HP & Torque control…downside is an immediately noticeable decline in MPG. The Autos that I dislike are the 2-speeds for the street...but that’s my opinion. Lot’s swear by them.

It's always nice "rowing thru the gears" in a manual trans vehicle...and blipping the throttle...here’s my take on a few in our possession:

• '67 GTO 400 4-spd w 3:55 - 1st gear over way too soon, 4th gear looking for more/another gear, usally gets a thumbs up, 'back in the day' positive comments.
• ’78 T/A 6.6 4-spd w 3:42 – 1st through 4th gear all seem fine; around town, until @ Highway speed of 70mph, looking for more/another gear. Same trans with minor gear difference than below – big difference in open road manners. Great for drag strip ¼ mile and around town.
• ’79 T/A 6.6 4-spd w 3:23 - 1st through 4th gear all seem fine; around town, great to cruise @ 100 mph on Highway with A/C on ‘cruising” along. Ex: Return on I-45 south from Ennis DAPA meet to Houston driving with hi-speed traffic for over 100 mile distances.

IMO it takes talent to performance drive ANY vehicle period. That's how (pick your other favorite sanction body) competition began in the old days. Post that "man card" next to your "man cave" signs on your wall if it makes you feel better.

Automatic or 4 speed what’s your pleasure? Buy and drive whatever you want: And do it quick! Before they outlaw it! Peace Out.

[george kujanski]

No person`s opinion is going to convince others to do one thing or another.

I wouldn`t pass up a great buy on a car because it had a different trans, that`s just silly.

The original intent of this thread was to get opinions, pros and cons, etc. It served that purpose. When i was looking for a muscle car toreplace mine, i didn`t want a rust bucket. Spent a lot of time fixing the previous one. This happened to have a manual and that was a plus.

I mentioned that starting issue because i`ve had to replace or crawl under a car to bang on a starter to get going, once a thousand miles from home, and i hate that helplessfeeling....it`s just me. Just one advantage of a manual over an auto.

By the same token, i`ve had to drive without a clutch due to broken linkage etc. To get the car home.

That`s a downside. It`s preference, that`s all.

BTW,i drive my Eldo daily, manually shifting.......that`s me.

George

[bird72]

I like 4 speeds, but I always wind up with automatics. DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like them more for the "road driving" aspect. I like the precise control of RPM in all situations. I like slippage when needed, which is actually better torque control. These two reasons make a 4 speed vastly better at road course performance driving than an automatic. For pure fast, a built auto that bangs the gears hard and fast is hard to beat. So for a street strip car I would go auto.

[Captainofiron]

just look at the quads on my left leg and compare to my right, and you can see which I prefer

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Captainofiron

just look at the quads on my left leg and compare to my right, and you can see which I prefer

What you talking bout Willis!? Any dude checking out your left vs right quad should immediately hand in their "Man Card"

I'm busy...