[John V.]

This thread has gone all over the place.

Do I have this straight? HSV is a partnership venture with Holden and is basically a performance conversion company that produced and sold a GTO in Australia based on the 2001 Holden Monaro Coupe and then the mildly updated 2004 Holden Monaro Coupe.

Lutz gets the idea that he can sell a GTO in the U.S. market based on the Holden Monaro, HSV has nothing to do with the build, Holden themselves produce the U.S. destined Pontiac GTO model, mildly differentiated with specific styling cues from the Aussie Monaro.

In '05, the Aussie Monaro ceases production but Holden continues to produce the coupe for HSV conversions and for the U.S. destined Pontiac GTO.

Lutz's hope to sell 18,000 units annually fizzles (the UAW must have been pleased that the import GTO fell flat). Bitten by a weakening U.S. dollar, the car is criticized for employing a dated platform and unmuscular styling at a price point that was hard to justify.

In a 3 model year run, Pontiac eventually sells about 41,000 GTOs.

Brad, you should know that I have ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY believed that the '04-'06 GTOs were very good cars and great bang for the buck.

But the target market largely rejected it. I say that not just because Pontiac sold about 25% fewer than Lutz believed they would, but also, the lackluster sales was indicative of zero excess demand. In other words, Lutz didn't just figure to sell 18,000 GTOs and satisfy ALL demand, he expected 30,000 buyers scrambling in hopes of being a lucky buyer. That never happened. When the last GTO arrived in the U.S., there was probably a better than 90 day supply of unsold GTOs still on dealer lots.

It surprises me when you say you bought BECAUSE of the nameplate. Okay, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe ALL of the 41,000 GTOs sold were sold to guys like you that the GTO nameplate was a big part of the appeal.

But I still contend it was a marketing gaffe. No way for me to prove it, but I contend that an all new nameplate would have generated a much broader appeal within the target market. It is my belief that the car should have easily sold 18,000 units and had buyers clamoring for many more.

Perhaps the buyers who did get one like the fact that they were sold in more limited nos. Perhaps makes them more valuable as a collectible.

But that did nothing for GM. I am certain GM would have preferred to sell 54,000, not 41,000. And I'm equally certain that Pontiac would have preferred to see double the foot traffic wanting "in" as compared to the actual foot traffic generated by the GTO.

And in the end, I blame the nameplate choice itself for that failure. It proved to be polarizing. And I believe that stymied sales.

You make the claim that the car meets the definition of GTO so deserves to wear the nameplate.

I'd forgotten, but reminded by Mr. GTO's link that the Holden Monaro was rebadged for other markets too, can you say Chevy Lumina?

It really isn't a matter of whether it deserves the GTO name. From a performance standpoint, I would argue that for the '90s, the Mitsubishi GTO was certainly worthy of the name but that doesn't mean I think it should enjoy a heritage with the '64-'74 Pontiac GTO.

No '64-'74 GTO was ever homologated to any GT racing class.

And even Ferrari cheated in order to gain homologation for their GTO, as they never produced enough examples to meet FIA rules for homologation.

What I personally question is the connection between the '64-'74 Pontiac GTOs and the '04-'06 Pontiac GTOs. When new, the '64-'74 were trendsetters. They defined the musclecar category and all others attempted to "me too" the GTO, in particular at the height of the category's popularity.

In contrast, the '04-'06 did not spawn a category. Powerful engine in a small rear wheel drive chassis? Nothing new there. Heck, even Pontiac insisted that it was intended to compete with other imports (in part because the price had inflated) rather than the Mustang as example.

The dated platform put it at a disadvantage vs. newer more refined competition.

I don't consider them the red headed step child of the Pontiac GTO family. They stand by themselves. If anything, their family is the Holden Monaro family. Whatever the connection Lutz thought they would have to the '64-'74 GTOs simply escapes me with the exception of the nameplate.

Mainly I believe the car would have sold better with a different name. It's just an opinion.