[ra96]

Ok in keeping it basic do everything Kyle said i may have missed it in the 6 pages but are the points good worn unknown- ? and if good- first thing is check the dwell
(meaning point gap) if your not sure how to do it thats another post but its easy and im sure many here could walk you through it here if im away from the computer
that said since you dont have a tach go to Sears and get a basic engine analyzer fairly cheap
it would have a tach and dwell so he could start there after that as Kyle said check the intial timing if possible after you reset the timing and say its 12-14 degrees initial ( at idle) if possible to drive around the block a few times -and if by the seat of your pants doesnt feel 100% advance it a few more degrees go around the block till it feels good if after youve advanced and it starts to feel less responsive and powerfull go back to the previous setting then at that point you can check all in total advance but if the car runs and starts well the all in is what ever it ends up being should be fine

[PontGuy]

ra96, I think he already installed a Pertronix so issues related to points are out of the picture.

Lets go back to the start, and remember that the title of the thread is "lack of power"...

Originally Posted by Darth Menace

Hey, the short little time that I drove my car (about 1.5 hours after driving, we felt it was not the safest thing driving with such little brake power as well as super cracked wheels) the car seemed to have little pep and stalled while stopped at a light. My friend then towed the car home where I parked it.

I am hopeing to work towards this problem. Barring any internal mechanical issues, what would you guys suggest.

What I am doing at the moment is spark plugs, wires, air cleaner (the idle really picked up if the air cleaner was removed, but it wasn't driven with it off). Out of these I am thinking the new cleaner will make the significant difference.

Afterwards, I am thinking to check the timing, and adjust the carb screw, replace cap/rotor, coil.

Could there be a vacuum leak causing this issue too?

So far it has new plugs, wires and air filter, the vacuum lines have been sorted, and the compression test did not show any issues with the cylinders and valves.

To me the "car has little pep" and also mention of slow throttle response later in the thread points right at timing which is why I put this toward to top of the list to check. And what should be a simple "set the timing" exercise is producing pretty weird results so far. So I think it is important to make sure that the advance is working OK and the timing is set close to where it should be. The only reason for mentioning the weights and springs is if someone put light springs in there that are preventing the advance from dropping back all the way at idle. If it has factory springs and the advance mechanism is not seized up then it should work OK even if the curve is not ideal.

I expect the idle quality might not be very good since we haven't made any idle mixture adjustments on the carb. But no mention anywhere of the engine missing or running rough under load. Darth, can you confirm that the engine runs smooth when you drive the car and step on the gas?

I am sure you will really enjoy the car once you get it all sorted out. So hang in there!

[ra96]

Darth please update us
seems he has made some progress-agree with pontguy if his idle is too high it will effect reading initail timing or as mentioned weak springs a cheap engine analyizer would let him read the rpms from right under the hood he would be able to lower the idle rpm in order to get a better intial reading on timing
I believe the spark plug gap is wider using the petronix unit it may be a small thing -but
Darth what did you gap the new plugs at?
also did any fuel delivery items get changed ? new gas in an old tank that may have sat for many years brings up stuff from the bottom of the tank
the cheapest easiest thing to do would be to buy a few fuel filters change the old one and see what happens--- if there is a lot of debri in the tank you may have to go through a few filters
Car could be running great so please update us

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

ra96, I think he already installed a Pertronix so issues related to points are out of the picture.

Lets go back to the start, and remember that the title of the thread is "lack of power"...



So far it has new plugs, wires and air filter, the vacuum lines have been sorted, and the compression test did not show any issues with the cylinders and valves.

To me the "car has little pep" and also mention of slow throttle response later in the thread points right at timing which is why I put this toward to top of the list to check. And what should be a simple "set the timing" exercise is producing pretty weird results so far. So I think it is important to make sure that the advance is working OK and the timing is set close to where it should be. The only reason for mentioning the weights and springs is if someone put light springs in there that are preventing the advance from dropping back all the way at idle. If it has factory springs and the advance mechanism is not seized up then it should work OK even if the curve is not ideal.

I expect the idle quality might not be very good since we haven't made any idle mixture adjustments on the carb. But no mention anywhere of the engine missing or running rough under load. Darth, can you confirm that the engine runs smooth when you drive the car and step on the gas?

I am sure you will really enjoy the car once you get it all sorted out. So hang in there!

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of response recently. When i have a weekend off it is always go go go with my kids...especially since i work afternoons starting tomorrow so it means not seeing them for 5 days straight. (Though afternoon shift gives me a lit of time to work on any projects)

Anyways to answer your questions, no i dont think the idle quality seems out of whack. It might be, but if i saw this car idling and knew nothing about it, i wouldnt think it sounds out of the oridinary when idling. No odd sounding misses or anything. I can take a video of this tomorrow when i get back to the car. A video might not give the best assessment, but it`s worth a shot.

Now about it running smooth when i step on the gas...the answer is a fat no. At highway speeds the car shakes like the blazes and when i step on it say at 60-70mlh...it either accellerated really slow to virtually not at all.

[Darth Menace]

Yes, i agree progress has been made on the ride quality of this car. Ive replaced the vacuum lines, air cleaner, fuel filter, installed a pertronix ignition, new wires, plugs. However to confirm what some are guessing...the timing is way advanced. I have a mechanic aquiantance i see on a near daily basis and webchat every once in a while about what i am doing. I told him about the most recent info and he did a quick look and he said he can tell its too advanced now because of how it started. He wasnt sure why the timing would be about 30 at idle, and he doesnt have time to get deep into it.

About the spark plugs, i gapped them at the factory recomendations. The pertronix was an afterthought and i didnt change the spark plug gap when i installed it.

Originally Posted by ra96

Darth please update us
seems he has made some progress-agree with pontguy if his idle is too high it will effect reading initail timing or as mentioned weak springs a cheap engine analyizer would let him read the rpms from right under the hood he would be able to lower the idle rpm in order to get a better intial reading on timing
I believe the spark plug gap is wider using the petronix unit it may be a small thing -but
Darth what did you gap the new plugs at?
also did any fuel delivery items get changed ? new gas in an old tank that may have sat for many years brings up stuff from the bottom of the tank
the cheapest easiest thing to do would be to buy a few fuel filters change the old one and see what happens--- if there is a lot of debri in the tank you may have to go through a few filters
Car could be running great so please update us

[Darth Menace]

I just redid the timing. It is 14 at idle and all out timing at 32. That is with the vacuum advance plugged with a golf tee. Does that sound a little more appropriate? I'm not sure if it was me before or the vacuum not plugged.

I took videos, but I'm not sure if they are relevant

[nytrainer]

Alright now you're cooking. Those numbers look pretty good and as mentioned you can now try bumping it up a degree and test drive it. Listen for any pinging and if it exists then back it back down. Good to see that the mechanical advance seems to be working properly. With the timimg squared away you can now play with the carb. settings.

[webfoot]

I would be happy with that! Time to test it out!

[PontGuy]

Agree, those numbers make sense and should be close enough for the engine to run good.

Have you driven the car since making the change?

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by nytrainer

Alright now you're cooking. Those numbers look pretty good and as mentioned you can now try bumping it up a degree and test drive it. Listen for any pinging and if it exists then back it back down. Good to see that the mechanical advance seems to be working properly. With the timimg squared away you can now play with the carb. settings.

I would have thought that the idle number was a touch high and the all out number was a bit low, but I will take it if you guys think it's satisfactory and it drives okay.

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Agree, those numbers make sense and should be close enough for the engine to run good.

Have you driven the car since making the change?

Unfortunately no...nothing of any significance. I have to finish all the stuff to get it to pass the provincial inspection done first. I have it insured, but not registered to drive and last think I want is a ticket/tow. What's funny is I made my job harder with this by selling the rear bumper...I thought I was going to get a replacement earlier, but they are a fortune to ship up here. So I am going to email the guy and see what it will take to buy it back or borrow it for a bit. There are still other things to be completed before I am comfortable with the inspection:

1)Speedometer (I have hated this thing since the fall)
2) clamp lines at rail (10 minute job, but waiting to heal so I can lay under there comfortably)
3) Needs sunvisors (will grab something from the wreckers and smack it in there for the inspection. No need to spend $100 on new visors for a convertible at the moment)
4) Any side window cannot be opened/closed readily (1/4 windows don't function properly. This doesn't seem fun)
5)replace rear bumper
6)weatherstripping
7) There is a random wire hanging down with a connector on the end, on the driver's side of the transmission. I am sure this isn't there for beauty, so I have to get this all fixed up.
8) the blower fan stopped working shortly after I did a thermostat change. Coincidence, I dont know, but it sucks it stopped

Not trying to turn this into a provincial inspection thread (I already have one of those here), but just showing that I still have some more to do. The roads are just clearing up here so I wouldn't want to drive it anyway until the roads are good. Kind of sucks I make progress in some areas, and then notice some more in others.

I do want to get the carb issue resolved and see if it's a crap carb or just in need of a tuning. I am pumped progress is being made here though

[Darth Menace]

thanks again for the help. Hopefully this clears up some of the drivability problems. Hopefully the difference of total timing from the original 26 to now 32 will help with the issues.

[kyle_blake]

Hey if you have an automatic, that wire hanging down on drivers side of tranny, assume it's a th400. is for the kickdown...passing gear. I believe behind the gas pedal area is the switch that sends down the pedal information to tranny.. is the driver's foot into it, can we / should we pass. Does it have a weird plastic clip on it that's kinda rectangular?

My friend's car is a 350 and he put a ram air iv type cam in with stock rockers and low compression, his 350 was not super impressive nor would it idle very well. It took forever and countless shops to get it to act like a normal engine. anyway not sure if you know the camshaft that's is it, and if you don't you can check max lift by using a test. that's another conversation.

yes gotta pass the inspection, always a pain in alberta, but much easier than being in BC!!!

[PontGuy]

Originally Posted by Darth Menace

I would have thought that the idle number was a touch high and the all out number was a bit low

That is probably correct, but the amount of centrifugal advance built into a given distributor depends on the original application. 18 degrees of advance is not at all unusual, though it can limit the amount of all-in advance you can have without running into starting problems due to having too high a base.

The main goal for now is to make sure that timing is reasonable. Going from 26 to 32 all-in is a big jump that you should really feel. And now that you know a base setting of 14 gives you 32 degrees all-in you can bump it a degree or two at a time to see how it responds without having to measure all-in timing again. Modifying the timing curve can be set aside for later if needed.

What are the issues with the carb? Most of the external adjustments are for tuning idle speed and quality. If the engine is idling good then there's not much that can be done without tearing into it or getting a better carb.

One last thing I would do is put a vacuum gauge on it to see what the engine is pulling at idle. Note the RPM that the reading is taken at and whether the needle is steady or whether there is any pulsing. That will help confirm that the valvetrain is in good shape and also give us a bit of a clue as to how big a cam it has.

Other than that, I agree it sounds like your focus needs to be on all the other stuff to get past inspection.

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by kyle_blake

Hey if you have an automatic, that wire hanging down on drivers side of tranny, assume it's a th400. is for the kickdown...passing gear. I believe behind the gas pedal area is the switch that sends down the pedal information to tranny.. is the driver's foot into it, can we / should we pass. Does it have a weird plastic clip on it that's kinda rectangular?

My friend's car is a 350 and he put a ram air iv type cam in with stock rockers and low compression, his 350 was not super impressive nor would it idle very well. It took forever and countless shops to get it to act like a normal engine. anyway not sure if you know the camshaft that's is it, and if you don't you can check max lift by using a test. that's another conversation.

yes gotta pass the inspection, always a pain in alberta, but much easier than being in BC!!!

Ya, provincial inspections aren't fun. The Charger and Viper passed with flying colors, but this car is taking some work. I found a muscle car friendly inpsection guy, but I don't want to slack on some things just to gamble on it passing or not. I think having the brakes all done up, no leaks and driving right will go a long way....some of the other stupid stuff he may look the other way

[Darth Menace]

I had a "lack of gas" thread around the same time as this thread, but both eventually morphed into one as the problems were somewhat similar. In that thread we had resolved that some of the problems I am having are from the car being too lean. I'm hoping a tune can give it that extra gas it needs.

Also, what area do I plug the vacuum gauge into? Any other unique things other than just warming it up?

Originally Posted by PontGuy

What are the issues with the carb? Most of the external adjustments are for tuning idle speed and quality. If the engine is idling good then there's not much that can be done without tearing into it or getting a better carb.

One last thing I would do is put a vacuum gauge on it to see what the engine is pulling at idle. Note the RPM that the reading is taken at and whether the needle is steady or whether there is any pulsing. That will help confirm that the valvetrain is in good shape and also give us a bit of a clue as to how big a cam it has.

[PontGuy]

I found your "lack of gas" thread.

One more thing before moving on. When you pull the vacuum hose from the vacuum advance (when checking timing) does timing jump back and the engine slow down? If so that's good. Just want to make sure that the vacuum diaphragm on the distributor is OK.

The vacuum gauge should be hooked up to any manifold vacuum source. Since you have the vacuum advance connected to the manifold you can tee it into this hose.

Regarding the engine quitting when you put the car in gear- if you have the PVC hooked up properly and there are no major vacuum leaks, timing is set properly, and it is firing on all cylinders then it sounds like a carb problem. Assuming that the Edelbrock has a big enough idle circuit for your cam (I have no experience with Edelbrock) then the idle speed and mixture screws probably just need some adjusting. Having the vacuum gage connected will help with this.

Yes the engine needs to be warmed up and the choke disengaged to get good vacuum readings and to make carb adjustments.

[corellian corvette]

Guys one thing to consider. If he has a stock distributor, with a stock vacuum advance, and is running 32deg all in and 14initial he could be running WAY overadvanced at cruise with vacuum advance. Stock GM Vacuum canisters put out 20 up to 40 degrees of timing depending on application. If you're going to performance-tune your distributor with 36 mechanical then you need the properly spec'd canister that puts out only 12-16 degrees of vacuum at cruise. You don't want to get over 52deg total timing.

Darth I'm sorry to go against the grain here, but my recommendation is to setup the car to the stock timing for tuning purposes while you try and sort out then problem. Your car should run fine at the manufacturers specs. Performance timing requires more than just bumping up total timing. At a minimum you should disconnect the vacuum advance if you're running that much mechanical. Vacuum advance is only necessary for mileage improvements, it does nothing for performance.

[corellian corvette]

Also what's your vacuum readings at idle? A vacuum tester will tell you a lot about how your engine is running.

[PontGuy]

No problem going against the grain- I do it all the time

Happy to debate the approach.

Issue with setting it to "stock" is determining what that is with an unknown distributor and cam, pistons, other critical parts likely changed.

I just looked at my Chilton's (first time in many years) and the base setting for a 67 400 is 6 deg. So assuming the engine is 1967 and knowing there is 18 deg advance in the distributor that would only give 24 deg total advance. I know from experience that is not right. My cars wouldn't get out of their own way with timing set back that far.

For 1969 the base setting is listed as 12 degrees. With 18 deg centrifugal in the distributor that would give a total of 30 degrees which is very close to where he is now. It is very possible that the distributor is original to the car even though the engine has been swapped so that would be the correct "stock" setting, all things being equal. For optimum power I think that it should be a bit higher than this, but at least it is in the right range and the engine should run good.

Agree we don't know what vacuum can is on the distributor. Also don't know the mechanical curve. But since he is looking for the power then the total advance needs to be reasonable. If it causes pinging under light load with the can that is on it then that will need to be addressed. But I would not disconnect the vacuum advance unless it is causing problems.

Darth, understand that your priority has to be getting past inspection. But when you get back to engine tuning vacuum readings and some road testing would help.